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Regular driver changeover points?

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83G/84D

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Are there regular driver changeover points, if so where? Noticed Edgware Rd used for this previously.
 
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Mojo

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Are there regular driver changeover points, if so where? Noticed Edgware Rd used for this previously.
Anywhere there is a train crew depot.

In addition stepping back (which is when a Train Operator gets off one train and another T/Op takes it out, then they take out a later train) is done at non-depot locations, four I can immediately think of is Met line at Aldgate and Victoria line at Walthamstow and both ends of the Waterloo & City.

Circle & Hammersmith and Met crews change over at Baker St in early mornings and late evenings as some C&H trains stable in Neasden depot.
 

A Challenge

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Stepping back is also done on the Piccadily line at Arnos Grove in the peaks:
Working Timetable 58 Piccadilly Line said:
STEPPING BACK OF TRAIN OPERATORS AT ARNOS GROVE

Periods of Stepping Back on Mondays to Fridays will be as follows:- From 08.03½ until 10.31½ in the morning peak and from 16.02 until 19.29 in the evening peak. Train Operators will Step Back one train. Stepping Back is represented by the  symbol shown beneath the arrival time of the train at Arnos Grove.
note the symbol is wrong as it can't display on the forum
upload_2018-3-31_13-18-3.png
 

Mojo

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Stepping back is also done on the Piccadily line at Arnos Grove in the peaks:

note the symbol is wrong as it can't display on the forum
Stepping back is done at a number of locations but as there is a train crew depot there I did not include it as it was not an exception to my earlier statement ;) My list was locations where stepping back is done where there ISN’T a train crew depot.
 

83G/84D

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Anywhere there is a train crew depot.

In addition stepping back (which is when a Train Operator gets off one train and another T/Op takes it out, then they take out a later train) is done at non-depot locations, four I can immediately think of is Met line at Aldgate and Victoria line at Walthamstow and both ends of the Waterloo & City.

Circle & Hammersmith and Met crews change over at Baker St in early mornings and late evenings as some C&H trains stable in Neasden depot.

Do you know where the train crew depots are because I don’t?!
 

A Challenge

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I knew it was somewhere on the Piccadilly and thought it was Heathrow, then I decided to mention it anyway even though it wasn't!

I was suprised it was peaks only though!
 

A Challenge

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I believe for the Piccadilly they are Northfields, South Harrow, Arnos Grove and Cockfosters.
 

Mojo

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I believe for the Piccadilly they are Northfields, South Harrow, Arnos Grove and Cockfosters.
There has not been a train crew depot at South Harrow for 20 years or so now.

Depots are at:
Elephant/Castle
Queens Park

Acton District (separate drivers and separate management team/facilities to Picc)
Barking District (separate drivers but common management team/facilities to C&H)
Earls Court
Upminster

East Finchley
Golders Green
High Barnet
Morden

Hainault
Loughton
Leytonstone
White City
West Ruislip

North Greenwich
Stratford
Wembley Park

Acton Picc
Arnos Grove (with remote booking on at Oakwood)
Cockfosters
Northfields

North Greenwich
Stratford
Wembley Park

Barking C&H
Edgware Rd
Hammersmith

Harrow on the Hill
Neasden
Rickmansworth

Brixton
Seven Sisters (with remote booking on at Northumberland Park depot)
 

bramling

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There has not been a train crew depot at South Harrow for 20 years or so now.


East Finchley
Golders Green
High Barnet
Morden

A small addition to this, the Northern still has remote booking-on/off at Edgware for Golders Green drivers.

There are booked crew reliefs at Finchley Central for the Mill Hill shuttle train, plus its by no means unusual for crew reliefs to occur at Camden Town and Kennington when spare drivers are allocated, although none are booked to do so. This is particularly common when, for example, a Golders Green spare is covering part of a duty which has a lot of work on the High Barnet branch, or a Morden spare is covering part of a duty which has a lot of work on the Charing Cross branch and only sees Morden at the start and finish.
 

83G/84D

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There has not been a train crew depot at South Harrow for 20 years or so now.

Depots are at:
Elephant/Castle
Queens Park

Acton District (separate drivers and separate management team/facilities to Picc)
Barking District (separate drivers but common management team/facilities to C&H)
Earls Court
Upminster

East Finchley
Golders Green
High Barnet
Morden

Hainault
Loughton
Leytonstone
White City
West Ruislip

North Greenwich
Stratford
Wembley Park

Acton Picc
Arnos Grove (with remote booking on at Oakwood)
Cockfosters
Northfields

North Greenwich
Stratford
Wembley Park

Barking C&H
Edgware Rd
Hammersmith

Harrow on the Hill
Neasden
Rickmansworth

Brixton
Seven Sisters (with remote booking on at Northumberland Park depot)

Great thank you.
 

LU_timetabler

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If you go on the TfL website and find the WTT page, the timetable will be a dead giveaway for most crew changeover points, because there will be the aforementioned inverted triangle for stepping back - e.g. Bakerloo at Elephant. Also there are compulsory a stands (30 seconds stands) at crew changeover stations, e.g. Queen's Park on Bakerloo.

Obviously there will be a few occasionally used special book-on points, e.g. the Picc has to start the overnight platform stabler from Uxbridge, and has a number of trains stabled at South Harrow sidings. Since neither is a crew depot, special arrangements are made to enable drivers to start duties at these locations. I have also seen crew changes timetabled at West Kensington on the District on late night empty trains during engineering works. So special circumstances do also occur resulting in changes to the normal.

If you are looking at an LU timetable and see a T in bold in the middle of the passing time for that location, that is Train staff stop - i.e. a driver change.
 

Mutant Lemming

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There was a time when crew changeovers would also occur at locations with canteens but Kalooki schools would often result in crews picking up late after meal reliefs at places like Baker Street and Camden Town. Older travellers will probably recall frequent occasions where trains sat at those particular locations awaiting crews.
 

tgrb

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Sorry to be dense, but I don’t get the stepping back bit - either how or why!

Could someone explain in words of one syllable? :)
 

transmanche

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Sorry to be dense, but I don’t get the stepping back bit - either how or why!

Could someone explain in words of one syllable? :)
Take the Waterloo & City line as an example. The train arrives at Bank and the driver has to change ends in order to take the train back to Waterloo. The platform is busy, so it takes quite some time to 'switch off' the Train Operator's desk at one end, walk the length of the train, 'switch on' the Train Operator's desk at the other end and get ready for departure. This limits the frequency of service you can provide.

But, if you have another driver ready and waiting at the opposite end of the train who can 'switch on' the Train Operator's desk at the opposite end whilst the original driver 'switches off' his/her Train Operator's desk, then think how much time can be saved.

The original driver of that train then walks to the opposite end of the platform and waits for the next train - and repeat as required.

Although I have a notion that on the Waterloo & City line, drivers did/do step back two trains.
 

tgrb

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Take the Waterloo & City line as an example. The train arrives at Bank and the driver has to change ends in order to take the train back to Waterloo. The platform is busy, so it takes quite some time to 'switch off' the Train Operator's desk at one end, walk the length of the train, 'switch on' the Train Operator's desk at the other end and get ready for departure. This limits the frequency of service you can provide.

But, if you have another driver ready and waiting at the opposite end of the train who can 'switch on' the Train Operator's desk at the opposite end whilst the original driver 'switches off' his/her Train Operator's desk, then think how much time can be saved.

The original driver of that train then walks to the opposite end of the platform and waits for the next train - and repeat as required.

Although I have a notion that on the Waterloo & City line, drivers did/do step back two trains.

Ahhhh - makes much more sense now! thanks
 

bluegoblin7

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Although I have a notion that on the Waterloo & City line, drivers did/do step back two trains.

Stepping back on the W&C is actually quite complex, with the practice occuring at both ends and with variations during the day.

At Bank Train Operators step back one train all day Monday to Friday but not on Saturdays.

At Waterloo Train Operators step back two trains during peak hours, and on train during the off peak, on Mondays to Fridays (but not at all during the early mornings and late evenings). On Saturdays Train Operators step back one train for the majority of the day, but not in the early mornings and mid to late evenings.
 

philthetube

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If you go on the TfL website and find the WTT page, the timetable will be a dead giveaway for most crew changeover points, because there will be the aforementioned inverted triangle for stepping back - e.g. Bakerloo at Elephant. Also there are compulsory a stands (30 seconds stands) at crew changeover stations, e.g. Queen's Park on Bakerloo.

Obviously there will be a few occasionally used special book-on points, e.g. the Picc has to start the overnight platform stabler from Uxbridge, and has a number of trains stabled at South Harrow sidings. Since neither is a crew depot, special arrangements are made to enable drivers to start duties at these locations. I have also seen crew changes timetabled at West Kensington on the District on late night empty trains during engineering works. So special circumstances do also occur resulting in changes to the normal.

If you are looking at an LU timetable and see a T in bold in the middle of the passing time for that location, that is Train staff stop - i.e. a driver change.
The Pic train at Uxbridge is operated by a night driver, that is an exception though. Where trains are stabled away from book on points drivers normally travel from book on points by train or taxi, to be pedantic the thread title says changeover points and these are not that.

You do occasionally see crew changeovers in unusual places, Neasden on the Met comes to mind, usually if a spare driver needs to be replaced. There also used to be a couple of early morning crew reliefs at Neasden as will but I don't think they happen any more.
 

Dstock7080

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During the recent Christmas shutdown on the District Line crew reliefs were undertaken at South Kensington, although meal reliefs were booked at Earl’s Court. Facilities such as waiting area, toilet and water need to be provided at these unusual spots.
Stepping-back at Tower Hill pfm.2 was also done in 2017.
 

rebmcr

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Stepping back on the W&C is actually quite complex, with the practice occuring at both ends and with variations during the day.

At Bank Train Operators step back one train all day Monday to Friday but not on Saturdays.

At Waterloo Train Operators step back two trains during peak hours, and on train during the off peak, on Mondays to Fridays (but not at all during the early mornings and late evenings). On Saturdays Train Operators step back one train for the majority of the day, but not in the early mornings and mid to late evenings.

How much staff savings are there using that system rather than just having a driver in each cab, shuttling back and forth?
 

philthetube

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How much staff savings are there using that system rather than just having a driver in each cab, shuttling back and forth?
Basic maths suggest 8 drivers instead of 10 peak and 6 instead of 8 off peak
 

bramling

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During the recent Christmas shutdown on the District Line crew reliefs were undertaken at South Kensington, although meal reliefs were booked at Earl’s Court. Facilities such as waiting area, toilet and water need to be provided at these unusual spots.
Stepping-back at Tower Hill pfm.2 was also done in 2017.

Same with the Northern this last weekend - stepping back at Moorgate, with occasional crew reliefs with drivers from the north end depots coming and going, although the majority of the Morden-Moorgate service was worked by Morden crews. A manager on hand to oversee all this.
 
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