Rejected Appeal for no Ticket

[Takatsuki]

Little bit of backstory first as it's somewhat important. I have ulcerative colitis which is classified as a disability and means that mornings are particularly horrible. You can have sudden urgency and it's not particularly easy to hold it, meaning you HAVE TO get to a toilet.

In a morning I generally arrive 5 minutes before the train arrives and make sure I buy a ticket through the Trainline app. Sometimes it goes down due to being very busy, and I generally have sympathetic platform guards who allow me to board as Shipley as no public toilets, and the nearest is roughly 5 minutes walk when there is a lot of traffic preventing you to cross.

This morning in particular it was very busy on the train as the previous two were cancelled. I intended to buy one on the train but it was insanely busy, so I opted to buy one in the station as there is a ticket office on the platform side of the barrier. I tried my app again beforehand with no luck, so went to the office and was pulled aside and fined.

I explained the situation to no avail, and also explained this in my appeal and provided evidence of my diagnosis. Now, I know this is only a £20 fine but it is insanely upsetting for me as this illness already controls my life, and now I am essentially being fined for trying to ensure I dont have an accident in public because I had to run to a toilet or queue for a ticket instead of getting on the train at the door with the toilet.

Is there any way I can take this further as it is sort of ridiculous and really upsetting. They claimed in the response that they only really consider appeals regarding disability if they have learning disabilities or are partially signed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Without a doubt the easiest way to make this go away will be to pay the £20 Penalty Fare if you haven't already. This may feel unfair but it will be easier for you than fighting it assuming money is not too tight for that.

Moving forward, if you make this journey daily (as it reads like you do?) why not consider a season ticket? WYPTE offer a decent range of these as well as the rail ones and it's likely to be cheaper than purchasing tickets each day. As an alternative, perhaps consider, if you know you're going that far in advance, purchasing the day before? If you are going to do this, use Northern's app rather than Trainline as the latter will charge you avoidable fees for advance purchase.

 

[30907]

Just to clarify: I presume you were intending to buy at Leeds if no ticket seller came along?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi - sorry to hear about this, very much sympahise with your situation.

Apols if this is not helpful, but are you entitled to a Disabled railcard? If so I would suggest getting one (also IIRC has no time restrictions on use which is handy). Since a relative became entitled to one I have noted that TOC staff can be more 'forgiving' of problems as it sends a signal that the person has difficulties.

Obviously you need to meet the railcard definition of a disability which you can find on their site or a leaflet from a ticket office.

 

[Takatsuki]

Yeah, there is a small ticket office on the platform side of the barrier. I could have done what everyone else does and slyly walked through the barrier behind someone who has a ticket but I opted to actually go and buy a ticket.

It's at that point I was pulled aside and fined. It was actually the ticket seller who pointed me to a rail guard who then fined me.

 

[ninhog]

Pay the fine and chalk it up to experience.

Use the app to purchase a ticket before leaving home in future to be on the safe side, then you can’t go wrong.

 

[furlong]

If it was a Penalty Fare then there is defined appeals process which you should follow with 3 levels of appeal - so that gives you 3 chances to persuade 3 sets of different people of your case. Read the train company website and the appeal rules and try to find text that assists your argument and refer to it. (E.g. https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/disabled-people-s-protection-policy Making Rail Accessible page 11)

They claimed in the response that they only really consider appeals regarding disability if they have learning disabilities or are partially signed.

Every appeal must be judged on its merits - they shouldn't apply arbitrary restrictions. "We understand that disabilities are not always visible" the policy states. That said, while additional discretion should be shown, there's no blanket exemption. So also check the normal reasons for appeal, such as whether or not the company adhered to all the regulations regarding signage at your origin station as they often don't.

 

[Spurs]

Yeah, there is a small ticket office on the platform side of the barrier. I could have done what everyone else does and slyly walked through the barrier behind someone who has a ticket but I opted to actually go and buy a ticket.

It's at that point I was pulled aside and fined. It was actually the ticket seller who pointed me to a rail guard who then fined me.

As much as this situation absolutely sucks and in my opinion the company are out of order in fining you - please don't succumb to the temptation to do this. There's every chance you'd be caught, and the consequences for that could be serious - a court appearence, substantial 3-figure fine and criminal record would be a realistic possibility.

 

[WesternLancer]

IIRC there are previous posts on this forum about people going to this point at Leeds to pay (is it an excess fares window?) and coming away with some sort of fine / penalty when they were under the impression it was there to allow you to pay if you have not done so on board or before getting on the train.

Not that this helps the OP of course.

 

[island]

Why didn’t you buy a ticket at the booking office or ticket machines at Shipley?

 

[thejuggler]

Pay the fine and chalk it up to experience.

Use the app to purchase a ticket before leaving home in future to be on the safe side, then you can’t go wrong.

You can if the train is cancelled or line is closed between buying and getting to the station. You then have hassle of getting a refund.

 

[maniacmartin]

You didn't give any reason as to how your condition means you need a ticket on the other side of the gateline. I'm guessing Shipley has a ticket office and ticket machines that can be accessed without passing though the gateline.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm guessing Shipley has a ticket office and ticket machines that can be accessed without passing though the gateline.

It doesn't have a gateline (and as a triangular station I'd not even like to think about how you'd go about gating it!) but it does have a ticket office and TVMs.

 

[furlong]

It doesn't have a gateline (and as a triangular station I'd not even like to think about how you'd go about gating it!) but it does have a ticket office and TVMs.

But does it have the requisite compliant notices that allow Penalty Fares to be issued?

 

[Takatsuki]

Late response, sorry. Regarding the ticket offices in Shipley, you are absolutely right and they were available.

In this case there was a long wait for both due I assume, to the cancellation of two Leeds trains prior to mine. I'd been told previously by two station guards to just "get on. That app is only generally not working for a little while". Referring to the Trainline app not letting me book a ticket.

The other issue is that I am humiliated enough by the illness I have and soiling myself instead of getting on the train to use a toilet brings me to an obvious choice. The response I was given from my first appeal is that generally allowance is only made for people whom are partially sighted, have learning disabilities or have a mobility based disability which is really a kick in the teeth.

It is really ignorant of "not every disability is visible" and makes it sound like I have no choice but to crap myself waiting in a long queue, crap myself trying to make it to a bathroom or get fined for not scrapping myself.

This response might be a mess as I am absolutely knackered and about to sleep.

 

[Bantamzen]

Moving forward, if you make this journey daily (as it reads like you do?) why not consider a season ticket? WYPTE offer a decent range of these as well as the rail ones and it's likely to be cheaper than purchasing tickets each day. As an alternative, perhaps consider, if you know you're going that far in advance, purchasing the day before? If you are going to do this, use Northern's app rather than Trainline as the latter will charge you avoidable fees for advance purchase.

I'd second this, if the OP is a regular user, especially into Leeds an MCard might not only offer a solution but also some savings. They can be renewed at all Northern TVMs, at all major bus stations, and even at PayZone outlets. And if you have a NFC enabled smartphone, you can even use this to renew meaning no need to worry about getting to one of the above outlets.

https://www.m-card.co.uk/

 

[WesternLancer]

Late response, sorry. Regarding the ticket offices in Shipley, you are absolutely right and they were available.

In this case there was a long wait for both due I assume, to the cancellation of two Leeds trains prior to mine. I'd been told previously by two station guards to just "get on. That app is only generally not working for a little while". Referring to the Trainline app not letting me book a ticket.

The other issue is that I am humiliated enough by the illness I have and soiling myself instead of getting on the train to use a toilet brings me to an obvious choice. The response I was given from my first appeal is that generally allowance is only made for people whom are partially sighted, have learning disabilities or have a mobility based disability which is really a kick in the teeth.

It is really ignorant of "not every disability is visible" and makes it sound like I have no choice but to crap myself waiting in a long queue, crap myself trying to make it to a bathroom or get fined for not scrapping myself.

This response might be a mess as I am absolutely knackered and about to sleep.

Totally understand your situation. You've not answered my question as to whether you meet the Disabled Railcard eligibility (see post #4) which I think would alter the dynamic if you had one. I'm guessing you perhaps don't meet the criteria
see list here:
https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

I suspect that the responses you are getting is the rail company perhaps 'paraphrasing' the official definitions of disability that form the basis of the railcard eligibility and applying them to your situation (what I mean is, the difference between a debilitating condition, and a debilitating condition that meets a set of criteria entitling a person to certain levels of recognition by the UK state, and social security benefits or entitlements to assistance that comes with that, which given the UK state's general approach, is not over generous in my opinion).

I think it would be worth your appealing further (including up to the Rail Ombudsman if needed) specifically drawing attention to the statement on the Train Companies website stating that they accept that not all 'disabilities are visual', but that is in contrast to how your case has been handled and ask them if they could show discretion to refund the sum.

I'd do this in writing, on paper, enclosing a copy of the evidence of the condition you mentioned in your OP (shows the seriousness of it IMHO).

Apols also for asking the obvious, but assuming your travel is pre planned at least at the stage when you leave home in the morning, or eve before - is it not possible to buy your tickets on the app from the comfort of home where toilet access is easier? And / or if the app is temperamental would it be worth having another app to hand to use (eg Northern's, if they have one, or any other train company app). I'd not recommend the Trainline anyway (due to their charging policy).

Obv others have indicated the season ticket option, which if it works for your travel patterns is obviously a good option.

Good luck with this, it sounds like you have enough barriers to travel without having to deal with this sort of additional problem.

 

[Takatsuki]

I'd second this, if the OP is a regular user, especially into Leeds an MCard might not only offer a solution but also some savings. They can be renewed at all Northern TVMs, at all major bus stations, and even at PayZone outlets. And if you have a NFC enabled smartphone, you can even use this to renew meaning no need to worry about getting to one of the above outlets.

https://www.m-card.co.uk/

I forgot to mention that I do indeed have one of these. I'd been working from home due to my illness and as it's coming up to pay day opted to buy normal tickets for a few days so I could renew it and have it last until next pay day

 

[Takatsuki]

Totally understand your situation. You've not answered my question as to whether you meet the Disabled Railcard eligibility (see post #4) which I think would alter the dynamic if you had one. I'm guessing you perhaps don't meet the criteria
see list here:
https://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/are-you-eligible/

I suspect that the responses you are getting is the rail company perhaps 'paraphrasing' the official definitions of disability that form the basis of the railcard eligibility and applying them to your situation (what I mean is, the difference between a debilitating condition, and a debilitating condition that meets a set of criteria entitling a person to certain levels of recognition by the UK state, and social security benefits or entitlements to assistance that comes with that, which given the UK state's general approach, is not over generous in my opinion).

I think it would be worth your appealing further (including up to the Rail Ombudsman if needed) specifically drawing attention to the statement on the Train Companies website stating that they accept that not all 'disabilities are visual', but that is in contrast to how your case has been handled and ask them if they could show discretion to refund the sum.

I'd do this in writing, on paper, enclosing a copy of the evidence of the condition you mentioned in your OP (shows the seriousness of it IMHO).

Apols also for asking the obvious, but assuming your travel is pre planned at least at the stage when you leave home in the morning, or eve before - is it not possible to buy your tickets on the app from the comfort of home where toilet access is easier? And / or if the app is temperamental would it be worth having another app to hand to use (eg Northern's, if they have one, or any other train company app). I'd not recommend the Trainline anyway (due to their charging policy).

Obv others have indicated the season ticket option, which if it works for your travel patterns is obviously a good option.

Good luck with this, it sounds like you have enough barriers to travel without having to deal with this sort of additional problem.

Considered applying for that actually. The foundation that supports colitis and crohns actually have a guide detailing exactly how to apply for disability allowance so you are approved for it.

I've never been one for milking my illness as it's not something I'd wish on anyone and would honestly rather be missing a limb, but maybe it would be worth it.

Regarding the re-appeal, I actually did it last night and attached my diagnosis, a booklet explaining colitis and a small document detailing how it affects me personally. Whether or not they take it into account is another matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Considered applying for that actually. The foundation that supports colitis and crohns actually have a guide detailing exactly how to apply for disability allowance so you are approved for it.

I've never been one for milking my illness as it's not something I'd wish on anyone and would honestly rather be missing a limb, but maybe it would be worth it.

Regarding the re-appeal, I actually did it last night and attached my diagnosis, a booklet explaining colitis and a small document detailing how it affects me personally. Whether or not they take it into account is another matter.

Thanks for the reply - good luck with the further. Perhaps you can re-post in due course when you hear back. As i say, may be worth going to the Ombudsman depending on the outcome of this appeal

I understand re the railcard (or specifically the access to the passporting criteria that would help you get it). Of course I fully realise you gave the health details to help explain the context, and respect to you for that. My own view is that if you are owed some help by the govt to help with extra difficulties you face, well, that's what you pay your taxes for, and more to the point, I happily pay mine with gratitude that i don't need such help, but others do, and if I ever did, I hope it would be there for me. At risk of getting off topic of course.

Anyway - good luck with this.

 

[Takatsuki]

Thanks for the reply - good luck with the further. Perhaps you can re-post in due course when you hear back. As i say, may be worth going to the Ombudsman depending on the outcome of this appeal

I understand re the railcard (or specifically the access to the passporting criteria that would help you get it). Of course I fully realise you gave the health details to help explain the context, and respect to you for that. My own view is that if you are owed some help by the govt to help with extra difficulties you face, well, that's what you pay your taxes for, and more to the point, I happily pay mine with gratitude that i don't need such help, but others do, and if I ever did, I hope it would be there for me. At risk of getting off topic of course.

Anyway - good luck with this.

Yeah, I get your point. Thank you for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously you need to meet the railcard definition of a disability which you can find on their site or a leaflet from a ticket office.

FWIW, these are not tight conditions - my Dad has one and it's only because he's partially deaf in one ear. Good for him but I find it quite comedic that he gets a discount on rail travel plus a companion for a disability like that which while legally a disability is purely an irritant.

I forgot to mention that I do indeed have one of these. I'd been working from home due to my illness and as it's coming up to pay day opted to buy normal tickets for a few days so I could renew it and have it last until next pay day

While doing that, it might be an idea to bulk prepurchase these tickets in future and have them sat there ready in your wallet or purse. You can do that at a ticket office or online.

 

[WesternLancer]

FWIW, these are not tight conditions - my Dad has one and it's only because he's partially deaf in one ear. Good for him but I find it quite comedic that he gets a discount on rail travel plus a companion for a disability like that which while legally a disability is purely an irritant.
.

That's a good point in a way - I just checked the conditions again and that's a fairly low burden of eligibility (copy of NHS hearing aid book etc) contrasting with eg Attendance Allowance - which requires a pretty massive DWP claim form and complex entitlement. I'm not passing judgement on whether that is right or not, just quite a big difference.

I suspect some historic reason for that in terms of when the railcard was started and the criteria for it at the time.

 

[ninhog]

You can if the train is cancelled or line is closed between buying and getting to the station. You then have hassle of getting a refund.

I’d argue that the remote chance of hassle under those circumstances would be considerably less than trying to find somewhere to purchase a ticket much later on with the time-sensitive issues that the OP lives with.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Just to clarify I have UC and it is not a disability so no entitlement to disability railcard or any other disability benefits.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm guessing Shipley has a ticket office and ticket machines that can be accessed without passing though the gateline.

Shipley is a triangular station with no public toilet facilities (unless the cafe in the ticket hall has one?). Leeds-bound trains can depart from platform 3 (right by the ticket office, so no excuse) and platform 1 (which involves crossing a footbridge and a car park to reach the ticket office). The PF person probably won't be aware of the layout of this particular station.

 

[30907]

Shipley is a triangular station with no public toilet facilities (unless the cafe in the ticket hall has one?). Leeds-bound trains can depart from platform 3 (right by the ticket office, so no excuse) and platform 1 (which involves crossing a footbridge and a car park to reach the ticket office). The PF person probably won't be aware of the layout of this particular station.

No loos, as the OP I think said, and no gateline.
Two TVMs and normally two staff in the booking hall by P3, TVM on P1.
However, I think the OP is talking about paying at Leeds.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, I think the OP is talking about paying at Leeds.

He is, stopped at the Leeds Excess Fares window and issued a Penalty Fare because he didn't buy at Shipley. He didn't buy at Shipley because he needed the toilet on the train, I think.

Penalty charging those trying to buy a ticket always seemed a strange way to reward honesty...

 

[Takatsuki]

Just to clarify I have UC and it is not a disability so no entitlement to disability railcard or any other disability benefits.

Completely off-topic but I have a blue disability badge for the car so you may want to look into it further as I have a friend whom also claims benefits for Colitis.

The Colitis and Crohns site has essentially a pre-written guide on getting approved for PIP etc

 

[Takatsuki]

He is, stopped at the Leeds Excess Fares window and issued a Penalty Fare because he didn't buy at Shipley. He didn't buy at Shipley because he needed the toilet on the train, I think.

Penalty charging those trying to buy a ticket always seemed a strange way to reward honesty...

Yeah, sadly I always need the toilet around the time I get to Shipley station. Forcing myself to use the toilet makes me feel worse too as I used to try on a morning before leaving.