Remaining Class 365s leaving GN - What next for the 365s?

[HamworthyGoods]

Is there that much slack in the 700 fleet looking to the medium term? At present they are three (IIRC) 700/0 diagrams down on the GN side due to the peak Welwyns not running, but that’s it. If the Welwyns return then then will be back to being tight, and there’s not that much slack from elsewhere on TL, unless other stuff is cut.

There’s less slack in the GN 387 fleet since Kings Lynn 8-car happened. Presumably any slack is in the wider GTR fleet (eg the Gatwick units) rather than the existing GN 387s.

Herewith the start of all the nasty stuff that’s the consequence of Covid. Thin end of wedge.

Will trains like the peak Baldock extras be needed in the short/medium term, unlikely I would suggest.

 

[bramling]

Will trains like the peak Baldock extras be needed in the short/medium term, unlikely I would suggest.

Its rather premature to be planning for a medium-term cut in numbers. At some point the “work from home if you can” guidance is going to be removed, at which point there is going to be a bounce back, the extent of which isn’t really known. Likewise the moment the roads start getting busier, especially at peak times, people will return to trains.

This feels to be more cost-led than demand-led.

 

[BayPaul]

What is really interesting is that this appears to be the first 'Fat Controller' rolling stock change between TOCs since the old franchising model ended. In my opinion it is good to see the DfT (I presume) taking a sensible decision to make a small reduction in capacity on three lines in the current situation, and I suspect that it won't be the last change like this.

 

[D365]

Commercially sensitive for who? 30 year old rollingstock goes into storage due to low passenger numbers, it cant really be a surprise to the ROSCO.

I can’t speak for all railway companies, but I’ve always been taught to err on the side of caution. The key point being to not discuss information publicly until it is announced through official mediums.

It’s interesting how most are taking this as gospel, but we will see.

 

[43074]

Does this mean that as of today no more will run in passenger service for the foreseeable future?

Or would it be possible for someone in the fortunate position of being able to make an unavoidable railway journey on the GN route in the near future, albeit with a lot of discretion over when it took place, be able to adjust the timing of his journey so that he gets to hear that glorious "gear changing that isn't gear changing" acceleration sound one last time?

They have an increased number of diagrams on Sundays between March and April because of the Kings Cross project, so there are 2 pairs of them on the Peterborough route, as well as a single return weekday peak working also to Peterborough.

 

[Aictos]

Send all the GX 387s to GN and bring back the 442s

Urgh, no thanks because they should stay with SWR and used on the Southampton's freeing up 444s for Portsmouth services.

As to 365s leaving Great Northern and talk of potentially being fitted with batteries, how much work would be needed for them to be used on Uckfields and Ashford's? It's going to be asked anyway....

 

[adc82140]

Over on the rolling stock forum it's being suggested that the remaining 365s are leaving GN, and there may be a battery project forthcoming..

Remaining Class 365s leaving GN

The GN fleet is being reduced due to the reduction in passenger numbers. It has been confirmed that the remaining 21 x Class 365s will be leaving GN and placed into storage. What next for the 365s? Scrape or moved to another operator? GN to get 6 x 387/2 units from Gatwick Express and another...

www.railforums.co.uk

So here we go, where could they reasonably go. I can think of several places where a fleet of bi modes would be useful, but I'm struggling with 25kV/Battery hybrids.

(mods feel free to merge with whatever thread as needed)

 

[43096]

Commercially sensitive for who? 30 year old rollingstock goes into storage due to low passenger numbers, it cant really be a surprise to the ROSCO.

There is no conventional ROSCO: the 365 fleet is owned by the DfT.

 

[Hadders]

Sadly, I'm not surprised by this.

The 365s only run peak hours extras between Peterborough and King's Cross these days and with work from home being in vogue these services will be the first to be cut. If commuting levels resume to pre-pandemic levels then GTR should have slack in the 387 Gatwick Express branded fleet as there's no way passenger numbers to Gatwick at any time of day are going to return to anything like normal any time soon.

 

[Ianno87]

Its and 18% cut in fleet, or put another way its still 82% or previous capacity left, I don’t believe anyone is expecting that level of return to commuting any time soon.

Fits with the general belief that post Covid demand will be down 20%.

The sort of decision that is going to be necessary to satisfy HM Treasury, I'm afraid. The railway cannot ignore the enormous disparity between costs and revenue that isn't going to resolve itself any time soon.

 

[D365]

Nothing stopping the 365s being reactivated if post-lockdown passenger levels are higher than expected, I suppose.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not sure how attractive a battery 365 would be when compared to a battery 350/2 which will be available at some point in the near future.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm guessing this is a short term arrangement.. how can GX and C2C sustain after COVID without those units?

Does this mean we will be back to sardine services post Covid for a year or two until more stock is procured?

1) there won’t be a need to go back to pre Covid peak capacity for a long, long time
2) no

 

[HST43257]

So here we go, where could they reasonably go. I can think of several places where a fleet of bi modes would be useful, but I'm struggling with 25kV/Battery hybrids.

There’s often discussion about the right fleet for the Northern Manchester to Cumbria services. It’s 28 and a half miles from Carnforth to Barrow, so it would need to have a range of about 60 miles, which I’m not sure about. I’ve heard of 40 mile battery operations but I guess this could be upgraded. 3+2 would need to be sorted out as well.

Alternatively, there’s routes such as Leeds to Sheffield via Fitzwilliam and Metrocentre to Morpeth/Chathill (it can be shortened from Carlisle) that would benefit from batteries and are fine with 2+3

 

[357]

I'll be waiting for an official announcement - c2c have only just reactivated and started using their 6 387s again

 

[Class315]

.

 

[JonathanH]

3+2 would need to be sorted out as well.

365s have 2+2 seating already - the same seat pans as in 465s but with a spacer between the two seats.

 

[Kite159]

There’s often discussion about the right fleet for the Northern Manchester to Cumbria services. It’s 28 and a half miles from Carnforth to Barrow, so it would need to have a range of about 60 miles, which I’m not sure about. I’ve heard of 40 mile battery operations but I guess this could be upgraded. 3+2 would need to be sorted out as well.

Alternatively, there’s routes such as Leeds to Sheffield via Fitzwilliam and Metrocentre to Morpeth/Chathill (it can be shortened from Carlisle) that would benefit from batteries and are fine with 2+3

The 365s have 2+2 seating.

Unless you are talking about removing the 2+2 and replacing it with high density 3+2 seating?

 

[365 Networker]

Very sad news. It would be nice if there was a farewell tour of some kind, similar to what was done when the 313s were withdrawn. I suspect that would be difficult at the moment though.

Regarding future use for 365s. There were reps from a company, a few weeks ago, looking around a 365 unit at the depot with one of our RSIs. They were looking at the possibility of fitting traction batteries and doing some refurb work for a potential new operator. Don't know who that potential new operator might be I'm afraid.

I know Varamis Rail were looking at turning them into parcels trains.

 

[HST43257]

The 365s have 2+2 seating.

Unless you are talking about removing the 2+2 and replacing it with high density 3+2 seating?

Oh in that case never mind - I was wrong there. Do they have tables? They’d need them for the Cumbrian services.

 

[365 Networker]

How about an open access operator on the ECML, offering comfort, catering e.t.c.
If batteries are fitted, then they could be sent to Cross Country to replace the Turbostars.
They could also be used on East-west rail either with batteries or overhead lines if the route is ever electrified.

 

[JonathanH]

How about an open access operator on the ECML, offering comfort, catering e.t.c

Not fast enough and, besides, if they are being withdrawn, it is due to a lack of demand so such an operation wouldn't be viable.

If batteries are fitted, then they could be sent to Cross Country to replace the Turbostars.

Unlikely.

They could also be used on East-west rail either with batteries or overhead lines if the route is ever electrified.

As far as we know, east-west rail are currently in a tender process for their initial rolling stock. Battery fitted 365s are a bit of a lateral move. Who do you think would be promoting such a scheme given the units are government owned now. EWR only need 12-14 units.

 

[365 Networker]

Who do you think would be promoting such a scheme given the units are government owned now. EWR only need 12-14 units.

Perhaps as they are Government owned, they would be cheaper to lease or perhaps buy as I think I read that East-west rail will be separate from Network Rail.

 

[73128]

I'm guessing this is a short term arrangement.. how can GX and C2C sustain after COVID without those units?

don't what the timescale is but C2C already has new units on order to replace their small fleet of 387/1 (and more) already.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps as they are Government owned, they would be cheaper to lease or perhaps buy as I think I read that East-west rail will be separate from Network Rail.

Yes, but you still need a rolling stock or engineering company to promote the idea of fitting batteries, to take that idea to EWR and convince them that it will work.

It isn't just going to happen and there doesn't appear to be a test bed for it. If EWR are making decisions now about rolling stock are they going to take a punt on an unproven design? What is the fall back plan?

I note that there are already 19 365s out of use, many in sidings at Crewe. If someone was working on this design they might have already pulled one of those units out to start development of the battery idea (although I note that a test rig could be set up independent of the trains first).

 

[JonathanH]

don't what the timescale is but C2C already has new units on order to replace their small fleet of 387/1 (and more) already.

There's got to be an open question about whether that order could somehow be varied to either be cancelled or diverted elsewhere along with part of the 701 / 720 order, perhaps as part of the replacement of other older fleets.

 

[365 Networker]

Yes, but you still need a rolling stock or engineering company to promote the idea of fitting batteries, to take that idea to EWR and convince them that it will work.

It isn't just going to happen and there isn't a test bed for it. If EWR are making decisions now about rolling stock are they going to take a punt on an unproven design? What is the fall back plan?

I note that there are already 19 365s out of use, many in sidings at Crewe. If someone was working on this design they might have already pulled one of those units out to start development of the battery idea (although I note that a test rig could be set up independent of the trains first).

Yes, that's true, but they could introduce diesel stock first, as a temporary measure and fit a 365 with batteries to test. If successful, more can be ordered to replace the rest of the DMUs. I cant see why it would be that difficult as a 379 was fitted with batteries.

Also there is currently a 365 having ETCS fitted, so I don't see why they couldn't also test battery equipment.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, that's true, but they could introduce diesel stock first, as a temporary measure and fit a 365 with batteries to test. If successful, more can be ordered to replace the rest of the DMUs. I cant see why it would be that difficult as a 379 was fitted with batteries.

That would still mean seven, maybe eight years that the units aren't used. Will they still be in a suitable state to be used in 2028 if they have seen no use before then?

I'm not trying to suggest it isn't possible, just that it doesn't really hang together as a credible plan. Having said that, none of the stored 365s have gone for scrap yet so some sort of reuse must have been imagined at one point.

Also there is currently a 365 having ETCS fitted, so I don't see why they couldn't also test battery equipment.

I agree. They could be used to test battery equipment but I can't see anyone signing up to widespread battery use until the conversion is proven given what has happened with 769s.

 

[365 Networker]

That would still mean seven, maybe eight years that the units aren't used.

Why would it take 7 years? Personally I cant see it taking more than two years to fit batteries.

 

[37424]

There’s often discussion about the right fleet for the Northern Manchester to Cumbria services. It’s 28 and a half miles from Carnforth to Barrow, so it would need to have a range of about 60 miles, which I’m not sure about. I’ve heard of 40 mile battery operations but I guess this could be upgraded. 3+2 would need to be sorted out as well.

Alternatively, there’s routes such as Leeds to Sheffield via Fitzwilliam and Metrocentre to Morpeth/Chathill (it can be shortened from Carlisle) that would benefit from batteries and are fine with 2+3

As the Barrow/Windermere-Manchester Route was specifically specified for Modern Air Conditioned trains in the original ITT I doubt these would be good enough. There have been plans mulled over for Battery EMU's to Windermere and if they were to happen they most likely be 331's while Barrow may be pushing it a bit for range.

For me if we are looking at fitting Batteries, Hydrogen Conversion, etc to EMU's then we should be looking at fairly modern EMU's and ex BR era EMU's need not apply in my view.