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Remaining Class 365s leaving GN - What next for the 365s?

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Envy123

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I wonder if this also means the days of the Great Northern semi-fasts from Peterborough to Kings Cross are numbered?

I do use mostly Thameslink to get to and from London (Finsbury Park and Farringdon being my most used destinations), but on occasion, I did end up using the Kings Cross services.
 
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D365

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I wonder if this also means the days of the Great Northern semi-fasts from Peterborough to Kings Cross are numbered?
Why should it? They’ll be needed again post-lockdown.
 

HST43257

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Will they? London commuting from Peterborough / Huntingdon / St Neots etc is going to take a massive hit.
Agreed. Anyway, a 2tph service that goes non stop from SVG to FPK is still really good. Not too bad (except for the ironing boards) if there has to be a downgrade.
 

Hadders

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Most of the peak extras are being withdrawn from the 22nd. I think there'll be two additional services left in each peak period, 06:37 and 07:10 from Peterborough and 17:35 and 18:05 from Kings Cross. This will be more than adequate for the foreseeable future.

Agreed. Anyway, a 2tph service that goes non stop from SVG to FPK is still really good. Not too bad (except for the ironing boards) if there has to be a downgrade.
Still 4 non-stop Thameslink trains every hour between Stevenage and Finsbury Park. Three of these go to Cambridge and one to Peterborough. There are also the semi-fasts, one per hour to Peterborough and one per hour to Royston.
 
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Envy123

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Why should it? They’ll be needed again post-lockdown.
Because Thameslink is more useful in terms of more destinations that it serves, and I don’t think peak time commuting to and from these destinations will be high enough post-lockdown to justify a lot of “fasts”.
 

Hadders

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If another half a dozen or so additional peak extra services between Peterborough and Kings Cross are needed in 5-10 years time they'll just find a handful of EMUs from somewhere to operate them, sort of like what they did when the 321s came across to the GN a few years ago.

Don't get me wrong as a regular commuter from Stevenage to London I always try and use the 07:21 to Kings Cross (365 operated, reasonable seats, doesn't even stop at Finsbury Park) rather than the 07:17 to St Pancras (700 operated, ironing board seats, Finsbury Park call (which tbf can be very convenient for the Underground when the one way system isn't in use))

Thankfully the 07:21 remains but in the grand scheme of things losing these services is not really a hardship given cuts we're going to see elsewhere.
 

Envy123

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Possibly - class 365s are not the only stock to do the fast services after all.

For me, even with the one-way system, I find Finsbury Park to be more convenient if I need the Victoria Line. I find it a faff to interchange at Kings Cross.

The ironing board seats are a bummer, though.
 

365 Networker

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Possibly - class 365s are not the only stock to do the fast services after all.

For me, even with the one-way system, I find Finsbury Park to be more convenient if I need the Victoria Line. I find it a faff to interchange at Kings Cross.

The ironing board seats are a bummer, though.
I will miss the fantastic motor sounds and opening windows as well as the seats. I also find that 700s seem to jolt around quite a bit - possibly due to the low weight bogies.
 

Hadders

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For me, even with the one-way system, I find Finsbury Park to be more convenient if I need the Victoria Line. I find it a faff to interchange at Kings Cross.
The bonkers one-way system takes around 7 minutes to walk so it's well worth seeing if you overtake a Moorgate train on the approach to Finsbury Park, if so it's normally a cross platform interchange then a cross platform change to the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington.

Changing at Kings Cross is ok as long as you don't follow the tourist route!

I will miss the fantastic motor sounds and opening windows as well as the seats
Agreed! Nothing quite like 100mph on the down fast, with all the windows open on a hot summers day :D
 

Ianno87

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Agreed! Nothing quite like 100mph on the down fast, with all the windows open on a hot summers day :D

I personally prefer the 387s on the Cambridge fasts, but this is something I miss about 365s (with burning brake smell on a particularly sprightly run)
 

Envy123

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I will miss the fantastic motor sounds and opening windows as well as the seats. I also find that 700s seem to jolt around quite a bit - possibly due to the low weight bogies.

I like the motor sounds too.

The bonkers one-way system takes around 7 minutes to walk so it's well worth seeing if you overtake a Moorgate train on the approach to Finsbury Park, if so it's normally a cross platform interchange then a cross platform change to the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington.

Changing at Kings Cross is ok as long as you don't follow the tourist route!

I recall taking a Kings Cross train and then I walked a lot to get to the Victoria Line at Kings Cross. I thought maybe I should've taken the Thameslink service to Finsbury Park instead.

I simply followed the signs, so maybe that was the tourist route.
 

Hadders

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I simply followed the signs, so maybe that was the tourist route.
If you follow the signs you end up taking the tourist route!

Diamond Geezer's blog from 2010 explains:

King's Cross Nightmare 1: mainline station → Victoria Line
kxtunnel.jpg
It used to be simple. You alighted from your train down from Peterborough, Edinburgh or wherever, and an entrance on the main concourse directed you down to the ticket hall at the top of the Victoria line escalators. Not any more. That entrance has been filled in and replaced by seating, and a new entrance opened up in a wall to the west. Come this way, it beckons, seductively. And then at the foot of the stairs there's this illuminated sign, installed by utter ******* sadists. Hammersmith & City, Circle and Metropolitan lines to the left, and Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines to the right. So you turn to the right, because you trust signs like this. Big mistake.

Start the clock... 0:00 A terribly long corridor stretches off in front of you, eventually leading to the the new Northern ticket hall 0:40. Double back through the barriers 1:00 and down the escalator, then turn left along a long and winding tubular passageway 1:30. After a while 2:30 you'll reach the turnoff for the Piccadilly line but you're not going that way, you're carrying on. At the end of the tunnel 3:45 turn right down the last set of steps and you'll finally be on the Victoria line platforms 4:00. Four minutes in total, and that's the fastest I can do it as an able-bodied pedestrian unencumbered by luggage. Most people take longer, and elderly passengers with suitcases take so long you almost want to hug them at the end and say well done. What you should have done, of course, is to have ignored that evil sign and turned left 0:00. You'd soon have reached the top of the old escalator 0:30, headed down to the passageway below 1:00 and been on the Victoria line platform soon afterwards 1:30. It takes far less time, and requires considerably less physical effort. But no, the bastards send the unwary to the right, on a journey almost three times longer than necessary.
 
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Hadders

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Thank you - I’m going to London on Monday so I may be taking the Kings Cross service after all :)
Always worth checking if a Moorgate train is due at Finsbury Park around the same time. If so it'll usually be a cross platform change, go two stops to High bury & Islington for a cross platform change to the Victoria Line.
 

Hadders

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I was on a 700 recently which was still doing 100 mph at Langley Junction before starting braking for the Stevenage stop. Rare nowadays.
Hasn’t a fair bit of padding been added to the timings between Finsbury Park and Stevenage in recent years? I seem to remember it used to be timetabled as 17 minutes but it seems to be 19 nowadays.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge can confirm?
 

bramling

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Hasn’t a fair bit of padding been added to the timings between Finsbury Park and Stevenage in recent years? I seem to remember it used to be timetabled as 17 minutes but it seems to be 19 nowadays.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge can confirm?

I will have a look at a few old timetables I have sitting around to compare with the 1990s when I get a chance.

However, there *shouldn’t* be extra time now as the 700 timings should certainly be rather better than a 317, and most down journeys tend not to have any pathing or engineering allowance between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, though there’s normally a performance allowance of 1 minute between Woolmer Green and Stevenage.

The up direction tends to have more in the way of allowances. Meanwhile post May 2018 there tends to be quite a bit of dwell time added at stations across the board. Going back in time it’s notable that most timetables tended to be written with bare minimum dwell time at pretty much every station. This is probably the reason many journeys now take longer. I guess this is a combination of de-facto performance and pathing, though probably more the former.
 

Ianno87

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Yes, it's quite rare for them to be driven that way these days, but back in WAGN and even FCC days that was the norm.

I was on a 700 recently which was still doing 100 mph at Langley Junction before starting braking for the Stevenage stop. Rare nowadays.

The braking approaching Shepreth Branch Jn on the down was always telling, and depended on the driver. Brakes on at the M11 bridge was common, but some drivers left it later (one time didn't get burning brakes until then on one particularly 'spirited' run!)
 

bramling

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The braking approaching Shepreth Branch Jn on the down was always telling, and depended on the driver. Brakes on at the M11 bridge was common, but some drivers left it later (one time didn't get burning brakes until then on one particularly 'spirited' run!)

Stevenage on the down is always my favourite, especially on the fast. The other one is when routed fast to slow on the down at Woolmer Green, some drivers manage to get that to perfection. The crossover from down fast to slow at Hitchin used to be another good one at the full 70 mph, though this very rarely happens nowadays.
 

Bald Rick

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I will have a look at a few old timetables I have sitting around to compare with the 1990s when I get a chance.

However, there *shouldn’t* be extra time now as the 700 timings should certainly be rather better than a 317, and most down journeys tend not to have any pathing or engineering allowance between Finsbury Park and Stevenage, though there’s normally a performance allowance of 1 minute between Woolmer Green and Stevenage.

The up direction tends to have more in the way of allowances. Meanwhile post May 2018 there tends to be quite a bit of dwell time added at stations across the board. Going back in time it’s notable that most timetables tended to be written with bare minimum dwell time at pretty much every station. This is probably the reason many journeys now take longer. I guess this is a combination of de-facto performance and pathing, though probably more the former.

WTT is 19 mins FPK - SVG in each direction, which includes 1 min performance allowance and crossing slow to fast and fast to slow.
 

bramling

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WTT is 19 mins FPK - SVG in each direction, which includes 1 min performance allowance and crossing slow to fast and fast to slow.

Looking at a 1993 NSE (public not working) timetable I have, the typical Finsbury Park to Stevenage time is 21 mins.

By the 1998 timetable this seems to have gone down to 19 mins.

I presume there will be a slight difference between 317 and 365 timings?

What none of this captures of course is the amount of extra time added due to allowances, which in the up direction can be quite substantial and has become more common presumably as the railway has got busier.
 

Hadders

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WTT is 19 mins FPK - SVG in each direction, which includes 1 min performance allowance and crossing slow to fast and fast to slow.
Has it always been 19 minutes? I thought it was timetabled at 17 but I might be wrong. (iirc the old xx23 and xx53 departures from Kings Cross used to arrive SVG at XX16 and xx16, I can't remember the exact departure time from FPK but 23 minutes from KGX to SVG is as fast as today's peak extras from KGX to SVG, and they don't even call at FPK)
 
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