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Remaining DOO disputes?

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tomoufc

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Hi all

I'm writing an article on the history of the DOO strikes.

Does anyone know if any DOO disputes are still 'live'? As far as I can tell there was still a live dispute on South-Western. Does anyone know what happened to that? Was DOO introduced, and did that count as a loss for guards on that TOC?

Are there any other DOO disputes live, or potentially around the corner?

Thanks for your help
 
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geoffk

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I think that, to recover some of the losses incurred during the Covid period, DOO will definitely be on the agenda again. The design of Northern's 195s and 331s, with the door buttons inside the saloon, has meant that a whole section of seating at both ends of the train has been roped off for staff use only. I don't know if any of the newer stock for other TOCs is the same.
 

TEW

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The SWR dispute is still live, Covid and 701 delays are delaying a resolution, but the deal SWR reached with the drivers means no train will run without a guard.
 

swt_passenger

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Hi all

I'm writing an article on the history of the DOO strikes.

Does anyone know if any DOO disputes are still 'live'? As far as I can tell there was still a live dispute on South-Western. Does anyone know what happened to that? Was DOO introduced, and did that count as a loss for guards on that TOC?

Are there any other DOO disputes live, or potentially around the corner?

Thanks for your help
AIUI DOO was not introduced on SWR, they’re keeping guards on all trains. The dispute is ongoing and appears to be about what he will actually do, if the train is automatically opening the doors as proposed...
 

tomoufc

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AIUI DOO was not introduced on SWR, they’re keeping guards on all trains. The dispute is ongoing and appears to be about what he will actually do, if the train is automatically opening the doors as proposed...
Thank you. Is this potentially a bit of a loss for the RMT in the sense that yes, guards are guaranteed on each train, but that guarantee can be unilaterally revoked. That would surely prompt further strike action, but in such strike action the company could operate with DOO if it wished (if only on the 701s), thus undermining the effectiveness of such a strikes. Whereas if guards retain control of (closing) the doors, such strike breaking would be impossible? I believe that Northern 319s' DOO capability has actually been physically disabled (so not merely disabled 'by agreement', because of that very issue.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thank you. Is this potentially a bit of a loss for the RMT in the sense that yes, guards are guaranteed on each train, but that guarantee can be unilaterally revoked. That would surely prompt further strike action, but in such strike action the company could operate with DOO if it wished (if only on the 701s), thus undermining the effectiveness of such a strikes. Whereas if guards retain control of (closing) the doors, such strike breaking would be impossible? I believe that Northern 319s' DOO capability has actually been physically disabled (so not merely disabled 'by agreement', because of that very issue.

Of course if you can remove the button, you can also put it back. So it isn't really a barrier, just a psychological one.
 

tomoufc

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Is the Southern dispute still technically live? The latest I've read is that it is, but further strikes on it seem unlikely (and seemed unlikely before the pandemic, which has arguably made striking more difficult).
 

Scotrail84

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ScotRails DCO dispute is likely to return next year with Abelio getting emptied from the franchise. The deal the RMT struck was guaranteed no further extension of DCO for 10 years or until the end of the franchise, whichever comes first. The franchise ends next now year does it not? If that happens several depots for guards are ScotRail will basically be closed or have a skeleton staff compliment. Stirling for example, all the work is electric work now, that would be a candidate to close for guards All of ScotRails new electric fleet are all set up for DOO. Drivers already release the doors on all electric services with guards closing them, excluding the SPT setup.
 

LowLevel

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ScotRails DCO dispute is likely to return next year with Abelio getting emptied from the franchise. The deal the RMT struck was guaranteed no further extension of DCO for 10 years or until the end of the franchise, whichever comes first. The franchise ends next now year does it not? If that happens several depots for guards are ScotRail will basically be closed or have a skeleton staff compliment. Stirling for example, all the work is electric work now, that would be a candidate to close for guards All of ScotRails new electric fleet are all set up for DOO. Drivers already release the doors on all electric services with guards closing them, excluding the SPT setup.

It appeared the Scottish Government had little appetite for an argument over DOO as I seem to recall the previous dispute was settled on their instruction. I'd be surprised if that one raised it's head again unless there is a change of management at Holyrood.

As for others I reckon West Midlands Railway is the one to watch for flaring up. I hope to be wrong though.
 

Scotrail84

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It appeared the Scottish Government had little appetite for an argument over DOO as I seem to recall the previous dispute was settled on their instruction. I'd be surprised if that one raised it's head again unless there is a change of management at Holyrood.

As for others I reckon West Midlands Railway is the one to watch for flaring up. I hope to be wrong though.

I thought they had pushed for it although admittedly I'm not as well informed as I used to be.

IIRC the 2010 dispute the Scottish Gov wanted DOO? Is that right?
 

Ceat0908

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ScotRails DCO dispute is likely to return next year with Abelio getting emptied from the franchise. The deal the RMT struck was guaranteed no further extension of DCO for 10 years or until the end of the franchise, whichever comes first. The franchise ends next now year does it not? If that happens several depots for guards are ScotRail will basically be closed or have a skeleton staff compliment. Stirling for example, all the work is electric work now, that would be a candidate to close for guards All of ScotRails new electric fleet are all set up for DOO. Drivers already release the doors on all electric services with guards closing them, excluding the SPT setup.

RMT have posted this regarding abellio getting an extension under a direct award contract.
 

Horizon22

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Is the Southern dispute still technically live? The latest I've read is that it is, but further strikes on it seem unlikely (and seemed unlikely before the pandemic, which has arguably made striking more difficult).

I think technically yes but with so many OBSs and contingency OBS - and even many contingency guards now - the strikes have practically no impact and by the end of 2018 the strikes had little impact.
 

Robertj21a

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I think technically yes but with so many OBSs and contingency OBS - and even many contingency guards now - the strikes have practically no impact and by the end of 2018 the strikes had little impact.
I wonder if some other TOCs now wish they'd gone down the OBS route. It seemed pragmatic at the time and has stood the test of time.
 

Horizon22

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I wonder if some other TOCs now wish they'd gone down the OBS route. It seemed pragmatic at the time and has stood the test of time.

Perhaps but lets not forget it was a hellish 12-24 months on Southern + a driver strike.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if some other TOCs now wish they'd gone down the OBS route. It seemed pragmatic at the time and has stood the test of time.

It wouldn't have been accepted at every TOC. I believe it was proposed by Northern and Merseyrail to have OBSs instead of guards, and this was still considered worth striking about.
 
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When BR introduced DOO on various routes, was there a strike at every attempt or was the redundancy and redeployment enough to push it through for the most part . It's been said before that had BR continued most of the former NSE area probably would be DOO by now.
I'm not a supporter of it but too young to remember!
 

Kite159

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RMT have posted this regarding abellio getting an extension under a direct award contract.

Can you post it as text so people don't have to click on the data harvesting Facebook?
 

Ceat0908

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Can you post it as text so people don't have to click on the data harvesting Facebook?
Scottish Government set to reward failure and give Abellio a free ride to continue operating the ScotRail franchise from 2022

RAIL UNION RMT today expressed its concern that the Scottish Government’s proposed revised ‘Franchising Policy Statement’ is laying the groundwork to give Dutch state-owned Abellio a direct award when the franchise ends next year, despite its well documented poor performance, rather than using its powers to take its rail services into public ownership.

As the consultation on the Franchising Policy Statement closes, it is clear the Statement reflects the Scottish Government’s intention to extend Abellio’s tenure. The Statement sets out a vast number of circumstances in which ‘the Scottish Ministers may decide to directly award a franchise agreement’ rather than tendering the franchise or taking it into public ownership via the Operator of Last Resort (OLR).

In contrast, earlier this week, Wales’ rail passenger services transferred into public ownership, as the Welsh Government has recognised that this is the most effective way to provide stability to the rail network in the face of ongoing Covid-19 uncertainty.

RMT believes that it would provide far greater value for money for passengers and taxpayers and provide greater resilience for Scotland’s rail network if the Scottish Government stopped making excuses and instead used its existing powers to take control of Scotland’s rail passenger services.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“It is frankly unbelievable that the Scottish Government is poised to reward failure and give Abellio a free ride carrying operating rail services in Scotland.

“In the same week that the Government in Wales has taken rail services back into public ownership the Scottish government is once against showing its biased in favour of the privatised railway.

“The Scottish Government already has the powers to take its rail passenger services into public ownership, via the Operator of Last Resort yet it keeps making excuses not to.

“In response to a Freedom of Information case The Scottish Government has also refused to publish its response to the UK Government’s Williams Review of Rail, choosing instead to hide behind a veil of secrecy.

“This lack of transparency just reinforces RMT’s concerns that it opposed to public ownership of Scotland’s railways, despite this being the best way to deliver a resilient, cost-effective and reliable service.

“We need action, not more excuses, from the Scottish Government.”
 
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AMD

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Northern dispute is still live, albeit at ACAS - this has taken longer than planned due to COVID.
 

Horizon22

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Scottish Government set to reward failure and give Abellio a free ride to continue operating the ScotRail franchise from 2022

RAIL UNION RMT today expressed its concern that the Scottish Government’s proposed revised ‘Franchising Policy Statement’ is laying the groundwork to give Dutch state-owned Abellio a direct award when the franchise ends next year, despite its well documented poor performance, rather than using its powers to take its rail services into public ownership.

As the consultation on the Franchising Policy Statement closes, it is clear the Statement reflects the Scottish Government’s intention to extend Abellio’s tenure. The Statement sets out a vast number of circumstances in which ‘the Scottish Ministers may decide to directly award a franchise agreement’ rather than tendering the franchise or taking it into public ownership via the Operator of Last Resort (OLR).

In contrast, earlier this week, Wales’ rail passenger services transferred into public ownership, as the Welsh Government has recognised that this is the most effective way to provide stability to the rail network in the face of ongoing Covid-19 uncertainty.

RMT believes that it would provide far greater value for money for passengers and taxpayers and provide greater resilience for Scotland’s rail network if the Scottish Government stopped making excuses and instead used its existing powers to take control of Scotland’s rail passenger services.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“It is frankly unbelievable that the Scottish Government is poised to reward failure and give Abellio a free ride carrying operating rail services in Scotland.

“In the same week that the Government in Wales has taken rail services back into public ownership the Scottish government is once against showing its biased in favour of the privatised railway.

“The Scottish Government already has the powers to take its rail passenger services into public ownership, via the Operator of Last Resort yet it keeps making excuses not to.

“In response to a Freedom of Information case The Scottish Government has also refused to publish its response to the UK Government’s Williams Review of Rail, choosing instead to hide behind a veil of secrecy.

“This lack of transparency just reinforces RMT’s concerns that it opposed to public ownership of Scotland’s railways, despite this being the best way to deliver a resilient, cost-effective and reliable service.

“We need action, not more excuses, from the Scottish Government.”

A classic bombastic RMT press release - do they have problem with concessions in London or Merseyside then? As Scotrail is essentially a concession under the changes to franchising.
 

PG

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tomoufc

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Thanks for your replies, which are very useful (also thanks that the thread hasn't descended into a row about the RMT and strikes, and is largely sticking to the intention of it - a factual discussion of where various disputes are at, not the morality of such disputes).

By the way, this Wiki article is sort of useful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–2019_United_Kingdom_rail_strikes). It mentions that there were strikes over possible DOO on VTEC. Does anyone know if that was a serious possibility? Would I be right in assuming that government takeover effectively ended that dispute?
 

a_c_skinner

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Am I correct in thinking RMT leadership is changing. To a bystander (albeit a former shop steward) it looked to me as if differing policies might secure most of the gains for members without the losses that IA occasions. This isn't to discuss the union rather the potential in any remaining disputes.
 

craigybagel

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Covid could potentially change a lot of things. At a time when we're seeing several franchises (including some with promises of no DOO like TfW) end early, we're also seeing the biggest economic crisis the railway has faced in decades.

But at the same time, the entire country is also caught up in this same crisis, which might actually be a saving grace. Personally I think one of two things might happen.

It could be the perfect time to make a big push on DOO again. Money needs to be saved, the risk of redundancies is hanging in the air, and contracts are being torn up everywhere. It might seem like a perfect time to push forward with DOO in an attempt to save costs, and crush one of the few remaining nationally strong unions.

Or it could be the opposite - that the status quo is maintained. The reason I personally suspect that this is the most likely scenario is that the government has got much bigger fish to fry right now. Any attempt at bringing in DOO is going to cause chaos, the RMT will see to that. The government may well win in the end, and now is probably a good a time as any in their eyes to have that battle - but it's going to be a very expensive and very painful battle in the short term, and with all the other problems they've got to deal with right now I'm not convinced they've got the bottle for it.

Fingers crossed for the latter scenario any way.
 

tomoufc

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Thanks for your replies, which are very useful (also thanks that the thread hasn't descended into a row about the RMT and strikes, and is largely sticking to the intention of it - a factual discussion of where various disputes are at, not the morality of such disputes).

By the way, this Wiki article is sort of useful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–2019_United_Kingdom_rail_strikes). It mentions that there were strikes over possible DOO on VTEC. Does anyone know if that was a serious possibility? Would I be right in assuming that government takeover effectively ended that dispute?
Same for GWR - was DOO ever really a realistic possibility? I assume what unites the two was the introduction of class 800/801s.
 

craigybagel

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I believe that Northern 319s' DOO capability has actually been physically disabled (so not merely disabled 'by agreement', because of that very issue.

Of course if you can remove the button, you can also put it back. So it isn't really a barrier, just a psychological one.
To be fair, the 319s DOO capability is a fairly moot point. As Bletchleyite says, it's only a case of reinstalling some wiring and buttons. But if you did that you still wouldn't be able to run the 319s DOO on the northern network the next day. When the 319s ran DOO down south, it was with mirrors and/or CCTV cameras fitted on every platform. Northern has none of that infrastructure.

It would be easier with the 195s and 331s as they're fitted with external CCTV cameras to run DOO, but even then there are other standards that need to be met such as platform lighting. Given the dilapidated state of many Northern stations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of work was needed to bring in DOO.
 

tomoufc

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To be fair, the 319s DOO capability is a fairly moot point. As Bletchleyite says, it's only a case of reinstalling some wiring and buttons. But if you did that you still wouldn't be able to run the 319s DOO on the northern network the next day. When the 319s ran DOO down south, it was with mirrors and/or CCTV cameras fitted on every platform. Northern has none of that infrastructure.

It would be easier with the 195s and 331s as they're fitted with external CCTV cameras to run DOO, but even then there are other standards that need to be met such as platform lighting. Given the dilapidated state of many Northern stations it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of work was needed to bring in DOO.

That's a very useful comment - thank you.

So perhaps it could be said that the reason the RMT/guards strikes on Southern (GTR) was less successful than it has been on other TOCs was that there already existed that platform infrastructure, thanks to the already existing DOO services (on Gatwick Express, I think)?

So then it would make sense (if you are of the view that striking does make sense, as the RMT clearly do) to strike early, well before the TOC (or the government, depending on how you look at it) has had the opportunity to install the necessary supporting infrastructure.
 

AshBod

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That's a very useful comment - thank you.

So perhaps it could be said that the reason the RMT/guards strikes on Southern (GTR) was less successful than it has been on other TOCs was that there already existed that platform infrastructure, thanks to the already existing DOO services (on Gatwick Express, I think)?

So then it would make sense (if you are of the view that striking does make sense, as the RMT clearly do) to strike early, well before the TOC (or the government, depending on how you look at it) has had the opportunity to install the necessary supporting infrastructure.
If I remembering rightly, I remember reading that any further DOO cannot be bought in by changing station infrastructure like monitors mirrors etc. The only way to do it is have in cab monitors not amending station infrastructure.
I might be wrong though but I do remember reading something like that! I'm sure someone will prove me wrong haha
 
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