Remaining DOO disputes?

[Matt Taylor]

The SWR dispute is ongoing and First have very recently put forward new proposals (presumably with Dft backing), the main details have been issued to guards but no details have yet been made public.

 

[dingdinger]

The SWR dispute is ongoing and First have very recently put forward new proposals (presumably with Dft backing), the main details have been issued to guards but no details have yet been made public.

The details I have been issued with are vague

 

[Wolfie]

This I can believe

This I can't. They'd have a strike across the entire TOC if they tried doing it that way.

In a similar manner to what happened at Southern, talks are due to start in the next two weeks between TfW and ASLEF regarding some big changes to T&C's that are required as part of the franchise plans. Bringing Sundays inside will be part of that, and no doubt some form of DOO for the Valleys as well.

I have to say that if the country's economic situation is as bad as l fear that it could be strikers will get precious little support. Indeed the Govt will likely actively seek to break the rail unions once and for all. The depths of a recession would be a good time from their perspective to do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to say that if the country's economic situation is as bad as l fear that it could be strikers will get precious little support. Indeed the Govt will likely actively seek to break the rail unions once and for all. The depths of a recession would be a good time from their perspective to do that.

Wouldn't surprise me. My prediction would be that whether we like it or not (and in order not to turn this into a classic DOO debate I am not expressing a preference on the matter here) DOO will be much more widespread in 5 years' time than it is now, be it DOO with OBS, or DOO without.

 

[DorkingMain]

Wouldn't surprise me. My prediction would be that whether we like it or not (and in order not to turn this into a classic DOO debate I am not expressing a preference on the matter here) DOO will be much more widespread in 5 years' time than it is now, be it DOO with OBS, or DOO without.

I suspect DCO with OBS to become the favoured method across the UK in the next couple of decades. It covers all bases of:

- Available on-board staff for revenue / passenger assistance
- Removing dispatch competencies from guards - there's a general belief in the upper echelons of the rail industry that guards dispatching trains is a dated method
- Drivers feeling like they're not alone in dealing with issues on board the train - one of the major sticking points for drivers on TSGN is not that they have to dispatch the train, but getting out of the cab to deal with issues like passcoms, door problems, etc.
- Appeasing the RMT to a great extent - guards aren't made redundant and can retain a rough semblance of what they were doing before minus dispatch.

When DOO with OBS was put in place on Southern, I feel points 1,3,4 were not given enough consideration in favour of achieving 2. Having a guaranteed OBS on each train means you lose those issues to a great extent.

 

[Efini92]

Wouldn't surprise me. My prediction would be that whether we like it or not (and in order not to turn this into a classic DOO debate I am not expressing a preference on the matter here) DOO will be much more widespread in 5 years' time than it is now, be it DOO with OBS, or DOO without.

I can’t see DOO coming to the north anytime soon. The infrastructure isn’t there and the cost involved would be astronomical.

 

[Robertj21a]

I suspect DCO with OBS to become the favoured method across the UK in the next couple of decades. It covers all bases of:

- Available on-board staff for revenue / passenger assistance
- Removing dispatch competencies from guards - there's a general belief in the upper echelons of the rail industry that guards dispatching trains is a dated method
- Drivers feeling like they're not alone in dealing with issues on board the train - one of the major sticking points for drivers on TSGN is not that they have to dispatch the train, but getting out of the cab to deal with issues like passcoms, door problems, etc.
- Appeasing the RMT to a great extent - guards aren't made redundant and can retain a rough semblance of what they were doing before minus dispatch.

When DOO with OBS was put in place on Southern, I feel points 1,3,4 were not given enough consideration in favour of achieving 2. Having a guaranteed OBS on each train means you lose those issues to a great extent.

I thought the Southern OBS was heavily promoted as being there to help the passengers - as indeed has proved to be the case. As for appeasing the RMT, I doubt that anybody has found any way to achieve that!

 

[Bald Rick]

I can’t see DOO coming to the north anytime soon. The infrastructure isn’t there and the cost involved would be astronomical.

I’ll bet there’s a DCO train in Newcastle before this year is out. And I don’t mean the Metro

 

[DorkingMain]

I thought the Southern OBS was heavily promoted as being there to help the passengers - as indeed has proved to be the case. As for appeasing the RMT, I doubt that anybody has found any way to achieve that!

The problem is Southern OBS aren't guaranteed on every train, so there's been numerous instances of a train with no OBS rolling up and a disabled passenger (for example) left stuck unable to board, or worse, depart.

 

[Ceat0908]

I’ll bet there’s a DCO train in Newcastle before this year is out. And I don’t mean the Metro

East coast trains ltd have hinted that this will be the case, and a few drivers have said that they were told this in interview. Body side cams are making it much easier to push through, obviously. Although the “customer ambassadors” role that they are creating, will supposedly be safety critical. Have to wait and see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t see DOO coming to the north anytime soon. The infrastructure isn’t there and the cost involved would be astronomical.

195s and 331s have on-vehicle cameras - they were ordered for DOO, the only reason they are not operated DOO is that agreement to do so could not be reached (hence the strikes).

 

[craigybagel]

I have to say that if the country's economic situation is as bad as l fear that it could be strikers will get precious little support. Indeed the Govt will likely actively seek to break the rail unions once and for all. The depths of a recession would be a good time from their perspective to do that.

Nothing new there, I don't think any drivers strike has ever had much support from anyone else!

As I said earlier, I do agree that the government may be tempted to make a big push now on DOO. They may even be successful. I'm just saying it will, even now, be a messy process. And with regards to the post I was replying to, once again as it stands DOO can't just be introduced on to any part of the W&B network right away. It will need either agreeing to, or being forced upon (with an inevitable strike if they try to do the latter).

I'm not saying it can't be done - just that the fact that the guaranteed guard on every train under the W&B franchise was phrased in such a way as to not include the Tram Train services doesn't make that much difference in my opinion.

 

[LowLevel]

I suspect DCO with OBS to become the favoured method across the UK in the next couple of decades. It covers all bases of:

- Available on-board staff for revenue / passenger assistance
- Removing dispatch competencies from guards - there's a general belief in the upper echelons of the rail industry that guards dispatching trains is a dated method
- Drivers feeling like they're not alone in dealing with issues on board the train - one of the major sticking points for drivers on TSGN is not that they have to dispatch the train, but getting out of the cab to deal with issues like passcoms, door problems, etc.
- Appeasing the RMT to a great extent - guards aren't made redundant and can retain a rough semblance of what they were doing before minus dispatch.

When DOO with OBS was put in place on Southern, I feel points 1,3,4 were not given enough consideration in favour of achieving 2. Having a guaranteed OBS on each train means you lose those issues to a great extent.

From a purely customer service perspective of course there are multiple ways of looking at it I think. You can make the argument that relieving the guard of their routine operational duties makes them more available on the train and to a small degree that is true though it makes less difference than some would have you believe.

On the other hand on a network where generally stations are totally unmanned or whatever having a guard who is free to leave the train without fear of being left behind to undertake whatever they need to do, and then see it away once they're ready to do so has it's advantages. Quite apart from it being easier to spot passengers who might need help you can spot damage to the station or vandalism, defective departure boards, broken ticket machines etc.

Personally I think I make the best of all worlds in terms of train dispatch but if the driver were to take it on I would want an absolutely fire proof method of preventing the train from leaving without me if I saw fit to get off for whatever reason - my job is almost as much about providing a presence on the station as on the train, station staff in general and platform staff in particular being fairly rare in our bit of the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think I make the best of all worlds in terms of train dispatch but if the driver were to take it on I would want an absolutely fire proof method of preventing the train from leaving without me if I saw fit to get off for whatever reason - my job is almost as much about providing a presence on the station as on the train, station staff in general and platform staff in particular being fairly rare in our bit of the world.

Probably getting into needing a Speculative Ideas thread if it provokes much discussion, but how about having an arrangement like Voyagers where there's a key and buzzer by each door, but you just give a buzzer code that means "close up and go when safe" rather than supervising the whole process? The Southern "key on" method is a bit cack-handed as you can't leave a key on and walk away from the train as a passenger could prat with it.

 

[Efini92]

195s and 331s have on-vehicle cameras - they were ordered for DOO, the only reason they are not operated DOO is that agreement to do so could not be reached (hence the strikes).

The cameras are not fit for DOO. You’d be better with a kaleidoscope

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cameras are not fit for DOO. You’d be better with a kaleidoscope

As in "they don't meet the legal specification for DOO" or "they're a bit rubbish but they do technically meet the specification"?

Which of these it is might influence what DaFT looks to do.

(Cheap as... )

 

[Efini92]

As in "they don't meet the legal specification for DOO" or "they're a bit rubbish but they do technically meet the specification"?

Which of these it is might influence what DaFT looks to do.

(Cheap as... )

Very cheap. Some don’t work and some have let in water and needed replacing already.
I’m not sure about the standard but I can say it’s not easy to make out what’s going on.

 

[pompeyfan]

Out of interest, say an OBS is working an 8 car 377 and are currently in coach 6, when they notice a passenger in a wheelchair wishing to board coach 2, how does the OBS move coaches without being left behind? Common sense would say the OBS use the C-2-C to inform the driver they’re keying off and moving coach, but the railway doesn’t run on common sense.

The SWR dispute is ongoing and First have very recently put forward new proposals (presumably with Dft backing), the main details have been issued to guards but no details have yet been made public.

that’s interesting I must have missed that, can you send me a copy through the usual channels please?

 

[Scotrail84]

195s and 331s have on-vehicle cameras - they were ordered for DOO, the only reason they are not operated DOO is that agreement to do so could not be reached (hence the strikes).

Most new stock is configured for both DOO and guard operated incase they transfer to other operators who already operate with DOO in future or vice versa. Theres also an automatic assumption between electric trains and DOO for some reason. This absolutely does not have to be the case.

 

[RichardKing]

Out of interest, say an OBS is working an 8 car 377 and are currently in coach 6, when they notice a passenger in a wheelchair wishing to board coach 2, how does the OBS move coaches without being left behind? Common sense would say the OBS use the C-2-C to inform the driver they’re keying off and moving coach, but the railway doesn’t run on common sense.

I think that's essentially what happens, yeah.

At every station, the OBS will key on, step off the train, check the PTI for any passengers requiring assistance, either assist them, or, if there's no one there, step back on, key off and resume onboard duties. GTR claimed that freeing up the OBS from dispatch duties would give them more time to deal with onboard customer service, but, just like a Conductor, they still had to undertake a degree of platform duties at every station, so this argument was made pretty much redundant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most new stock is configured for both DOO and guard operated incase they transfer to other operators who already operate with DOO in future or vice versa. Theres also an automatic assumption between electric trains and DOO for some reason. This absolutely does not have to be the case.

True, but Northern (DfT) definitely did want DOO, there were lengthy strikes about it.

I think that's essentially what happens, yeah.

At every station, the OBS will key on, step off the train, check the PTI for any passengers requiring assistance, either assist them, or, if there's no one there, step back on, key off and resume onboard duties. GTR claimed that freeing up the OBS from dispatch duties would give them more time to deal with onboard customer service, but, just like a Conductor, they still had to undertake a degree of platform duties at every station, so this argument was made pretty much redundant.

I am intrigued as to why the driver can't see if someone is going to need assistance, then put out a PA for the OBS to attend them if so?

 

[ComUtoR]

I am intrigued as to why the driver can't see if someone is going to need assistance, then put out a PA for the OBS to attend them if so?

When a Driver arrives at a platform, they need to be looking out for the correct stopping points, checking the signal aspect, checking which side of the platform to release the doors, controlling the speed of their unit and all round ensuring that their operational duties are being carried out.

Also consider that not everyone who 'looks like' they need assistance; actually do. Many people are very capable or have people already with them. It may also be a case of infrastructure. Passengers are not all waiting at the platform edge. They can be in waiting rooms, platform shelters etc. They physically might not be visible to the Driver as they arrive at a platform.

 

[pompeyfan]

Am I correct in thinking there is at least one “driver release” TOC that looks for 3 clear seconds between wheel stop and door release to ensure the driver is checking everything is safe etc

 

[ComUtoR]

Am I correct in thinking there is at least one “driver release” TOC that looks for 3 clear seconds between wheel stop and door release to ensure the driver is checking everything is safe etc

Yep

 

[Horizon22]

I suspect DCO with OBS to become the favoured method across the UK in the next couple of decades. It covers all bases of:

- Available on-board staff for revenue / passenger assistance
- Removing dispatch competencies from guards - there's a general belief in the upper echelons of the rail industry that guards dispatching trains is a dated method
- Drivers feeling like they're not alone in dealing with issues on board the train - one of the major sticking points for drivers on TSGN is not that they have to dispatch the train, but getting out of the cab to deal with issues like passcoms, door problems, etc.
- Appeasing the RMT to a great extent - guards aren't made redundant and can retain a rough semblance of what they were doing before minus dispatch.

When DOO with OBS was put in place on Southern, I feel points 1,3,4 were not given enough consideration in favour of achieving 2. Having a guaranteed OBS on each train means you lose those issues to a great extent.

Have to say I agree with this - the sticking area is going to be around the guaranteed nature of the OBS (point 4). I think Southern get around this by guaranteeing it with the exception of CSL2 (Customer Service Level 2 - essentially major disruption) being declared to assist with running a train service with major crew displacement, but I've not seen how this works in practice.

The Southern "key on" method is a bit cack-handed as you can't leave a key on and walk away from the train as a passenger could prat with it.

I mean a passenger could start pressing buttons too on the panel in usual dispatch. See panels left open plenty of times. Either way I'm sure it is not beyond the realms of possibility to find a solution to this issue be it technical or procedural. As you say though, more for "speculative ideas"!

 

[Carlisle]

The cameras are not fit for DOO. You’d be better with a kaleidoscope

As there’s presently no agreement for their use on northern, the body side camera equipment isn’t likely to be a regular part of current depot cleaning or maintenance schedules, & a considerable number of stations probably still require lighting upgrades.

 

[Robertj21a]

The problem is Southern OBS aren't guaranteed on every train, so there's been numerous instances of a train with no OBS rolling up and a disabled passenger (for example) left stuck unable to board, or worse, depart.

Really? - numerous instances?

 

[172007]

As there’s presently no agreement for their use on northern, the body side camera equipment won’t likely be a regular part of current depot cleaning or maintenance schedules, & a considerable number of stations probably still require lighting upgrades.

If the body side cameras activate I.e. visible in the driving cab and it's a DOO ECS move and somebody does get killed as they happen to lean on the train just before it moves then the courts would have a field day surely. The rule book is explicit that Ecs passenger stock must be despatched correctly by checking the PTI. This includes a train stopped in a platform at a signal its not booked to stop at.

 

[Carlisle]

If the body side cameras activate I.e. visible in the driving cab and it's a DOO ECS move and somebody does get killed as they happen to lean on the train just before it moves then the courts would have a field day surely. The rule book is explicit that Ecs passenger stock must be despatched correctly by checking the PTI. This includes a train stopped in a platform at a signal its not booked to stop at.

Fine & makes sense , I wasn’t aware that the cameras had already been approved & accepted for use in DOO ECS workings

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the body side cameras activate I.e. visible in the driving cab and it's a DOO ECS move and somebody does get killed as they happen to lean on the train just before it moves then the courts would have a field day surely. The rule book is explicit that Ecs passenger stock must be despatched correctly by checking the PTI. This includes a train stopped in a platform at a signal its not booked to stop at.

How does that work on a long train of non-camera-fitted stock? Does the driver have to get out and look?