Remaining Great Northern services post Thameslink to be rolled into London Overground and LNER?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by plcd1, 16 May 2018.

  1. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I wonder how long it will be before the IEP taking over services to Kings Lynn takes to surface again. ;)
     
  2. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Give a damn?

    The GN inners are nothing like the old Silverlink Metro.

    Since the 1990s frequency has increased to 3tph off peak, many more at peak times, with longer trains during the day. The 313s were refurbished with new seats, and three extra trains were aquired. Peak times have seen the inner suburban service augmented by 317, 321, 365, 387 and now 700 services to Welwyn, many 8 cars. Most stations have been refurbished with CCTV and extra waiting areas, and are maintained in a reasonable state, with some having longer staffing since the TSGN franchise. Moorgate now has an all-week service and in to the evening too. Now new trains are due to arrive within the next few months. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

    What would TFL provide? Orange paint splashed everywhere, and pointless useless waste-of-money staff standing aground getting in the way? I suppose the Northern City Line stations would get refurbished- so people get to spend their few minutes waiting in a bright environment. They may look a little dilapidated but they’re perfectly fit for purpose IMO.

    The big constraint is the 6-car platform lengths and the turnaround capability at Moorgate. Let’s see what TFL could do about that, maybe they’ll surprise us with something? I won’t hold my breath on that though!
     
  3. Joe Paxton

    Joe Paxton Established Member

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    I didn't say they were (though there are arguably a few similarities).

    OK, I'll rephrase - an operator that wants the best for the service and has the ability to push for it.

    The GN inner stations are not up to scratch - and I'm referring to the above ground ones here.

    A clean, welcoming and safe atmosphere encourages people to use the service (and staffing is part of that).
     
  4. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Be interesting how LO would deal with incidents such as this evening. 6 operators fighting for network rails attention.

    Grand Central
    Hull trains
    LNER
    Thameslink
    London overground
    First open access.

    That’s just the passenger TOCs. Lots of conflicts between Thameslink and London overground.
     
  5. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    At least TfL would put the Moorgate to Finsbury Park line back on the Tube map if this transfer happens...
     
    Last edited: 16 May 2018
  6. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    Never mind all this, the London Overground strip map is going to be completely unfathomable if they add the Northern City line services!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    I would be happy to see the Moorgate to Hertford / Welwyn services go to TfL. The West London Line services of Southern that run to Milton Keynes I don't see as an obvious fit though.
     
  8. 700007

    700007 Member

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    There's a map on the TfL website here that shows all the lines that TfL aspires to take over and bring under the London Overground brand. The GN inners are on this as is pretty much every Southern metro service. The GN inners say 'towards Letchworth and Welwyn Garden Cities' but for obvious reasons we know Letchworth Garden City isn't happening. I imagine the cut off is Stevenage but even then that's quite some distance for an LO service.

    The MKC service isn't on the map, and tbh it shouldn't. That's not a service that would fit into TfL's 'typical train service' checklist being hourly and going to the extent of leaving the South East of England! That service should become a ThamesLink or LNWR service (the latter as far as CLJ only) if it does leave the Southern franchise.

    Can I also say the map is incredibly aspirational.
     
  9. gingerheid

    gingerheid Member

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    Operationally I can't imagine it being a good idea to have more operators at Cambridge. I'm sure staff or stock shortages must be less likely to happen the fewer operators there are?
     
  10. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    It was . they didn't get it:D
     
  11. Skimpot flyer

    Skimpot flyer Member

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    GN suburban services being handed to London Overground might bring one benefit... they’ll pay to build a terminal platform at Stevenage, that means Watton At Stone passengers will get their Northbound train connections restored. A bus-replacement service!
     
    Last edited: 17 May 2018
  12. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    So, basically just putting things back to how they were at electrification?

    64 class 313 units were built, all for the GN routes. Now only 44 are used on GN. They will be replaced by 25 class 717 units - equivalent to 50 313 units, but obviously in fixed 6-car formations.
     
  13. 387star

    387star Established Member

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    Hertford east is interestingly not TFL Rail but Greater Anglia
     
  14. IanXC

    IanXC Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Ha yes! Probably depends how the overall fleet numbers end up looking. GN has 29 387s, and I seem to recall plans to keep 19 365s in the longer term? If there is a surplus of IEP units (for instance if the ultimate demand/availability of infrastructure limits their use) *and* if said surplus could cover for 19 365s then I guess its possible. Remember there are also the 6 c2c 387s which will be available further down the line too.
     
  15. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    Or what about the use of Intercity rolling stock on other suburban services:lol:
     
  16. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Ah, that seems to have been explained as a Cambridge semi-fast in the online source I used, have I missed it being altered following another consultation?
     
  17. MedwayValiant

    MedwayValiant Member

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    Would they, though? The good folks of Watton at Stone don't vote for the Mayor of London, so there is no political imperative for his people to do as you suggest. Indeed, could it work the other way?

    Suppose London Overground decided to upgrade the line such that trains between Moorgate and Gordon Hill could run every 10 minutes with 12 carriages. The downside is that the Hertfordshire stations would be cut to a Pacer between Gordon Hill and Stevenage once every two hours. (Deliberate exaggeration, but you will see the point I'm making.)

    That suits the Mayor, because it wins him some votes in the Borough of Enfield - and he doesn't care if he's upset the Hertfordshire folk, because they are not within his remit.
     
  18. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Yes, there is something slightly uncomfortable about the TfL and the Mayor of London having control over services running far outside his area.

    Your local National Rail service is rubbish, you can complain to your MP, your local Overground service is rubbish and you live outside London, where does the political buck stop?
     
  19. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    However there's a good track record with TfL running the Metropolitan Line services well outside their area. Provided the bulk of the passengers are London-bound commuters, I don't foresee any particular issues with TfL running the services and being answerable to their customers. However, when it comes to investment, there can be all sorts of complications, as anyone who has followed the Croxley Link saga will know. Would TfL want to fund infrastructure enhancements in Stevenage? It would be up against major projects within London, and TfL has limited investment.
     
  20. tsr

    tsr Established Member

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    Network Rail controllers tend not to mind which colour the train is painted or who runs it - it’s more about finding a plan to move passenger trains (ASAP if stranded) to as many destinations as possible, preventing them from causing undue conflicts and congestion, working around blockages and so on.

    Each route will have pre-set contingency plans or can have plans modified for specific issues where an off-the-shelf plan is inappropriate. This will take into account things like the maximum capacity of any lines which remain open, the frequency of stops required to move as many passengers as possible, any services which may be suspended if they have parallel / duplicate routes, etc.

    Sometimes or indeed often, these plans will go somewhat out of sync and the service collapses for a bit, but invariably things will be recovered once all lines can accept normal traffic. This will be why it looks like Network Rail have stretched their resources. From watching the management of different operators’ trains first-hand, you could have 35 different operators, but all the controllers will mind about is making sure the route is open, the train can fit down it, the crew are there and all the stations have a service.
     
  21. Joe Paxton

    Joe Paxton Established Member

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    I think there are mechanisms such as memoranda of understanding between the DfT and TfL regarding services outside the GLA area, which mean that TfL are obliged to provide a proper level of service.

    The hypothetical scenario whereby TfL ignores anywhere outside Greater London would quickly result in the Mayor and TfL receiving all sorts of heat from DfT and beyond - and there are all sorts of levers that central government could pull to apply pressure to the Mayor and TfL, up to and including rescinding the devolution of such services.

    I appreciate the concern, but the reality is that these nightmare scenarios aren't going to happen. (Indeed experience shows that they will end up with an improved service.)
     
  22. mmh

    mmh Member

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    The Metropolitan line is largely self-contained though (sharing with the Chiltern aside) and doesn't really provide any journey opportunities other than to London. I think it's hard to find many similar routes in the national rail network into London, so the two that crop up for Overground or Underground conversion are always the Northern City route or Lewisham - Hayes (as a user of the latter I'm strongly against the recurring proposals to use it for a Bakerloo Line extension)
     
  23. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    But then they have changed the stopping pattern with fewer "fast" trains from Amersham, and more stops within the London boundary which hasn't been entirely popular for travellers outside of London
     
  24. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Virtually no fast trains from Amersham and Chesham , with a legacy of higher pricing also. Do not forget Mayor Kahn's TFL kyboshed the Croxley - Watford extension of the Met. It's in Herts - !
     
  25. higthomas

    higthomas Member

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    As someone who's going to be visiting Enfield frequently in the near future, the biggest benefit I see would be them bringing fares in line with TFL standard ones. Currently an off-peak single from Oxford Circus to Enfield Chase is £4.90 compared to £3.10 to Enfield Town. Unfortunately Enfield Chase has the much better service, which is soon to be double that to Enfield Town.
     
  26. SamYeager

    SamYeager Member

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    Never going to happen whilst the Government has to keep stumping up for Network Rail and various route subsidies. NR's propensity to spend money like water and go overbudget like there's no tomorrow doesn't exactly help either.
     
  27. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    They've also 'kyboshed' investment wholly within London, such as additional trains for the Jubilee and Northern, they have had to sell and leaseback the crossrail stock to get the deep tube upgrade programme moving - TfL are generally short of capital. Boris committed TfL to fund the shortfall of the Croxley Link project, without sufficient due diligence such as checking that the in-place funding was real, not (to give one example) notional values of actually worthless land. Like the Boris buses, it was unaffordable and has been cut.
    Wasn't aware of the cutbacks to Amersham and Chesham, that's interesting. I wonder if passenger numbers are down, before or as a result?
     
  28. notverydeep

    notverydeep Member

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    Services to Amersham and Chesham were not cut. In 2011 services at off peak times and in the 'counter peak' direction were re-routed via the 'local' lines and call at all stations. This enabled the off peak frequency at the 'local lines' station (North Harrow to Northwood) and on the Uxbridge Branch to be increased from 6 to 8 trains per hour, while using no more trains. The Amersham / Chesham trains were also extended from Baker Street to Aldgate, providing an all day through service. Thus these trains now serve more / busier stations with more passengers and perform a more useful, different role rather than duplicating the Chiltern Railways service. There are still fast trains to or from both Amersham and Chesham throughout both peaks in the busy direction and through much of the 'shoulder' periods, including until (roughly) 20:30 from Central London.
     
  29. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    There used to be 6tph to Amersham (4 Met/2 Chiltern) with a halfhourly shuttle to Chesham to Chalfont, formed of a 4 car A Stock train.

    With the impending full rollout of S8 trains which are formed of fixed 8 car trains and the bay at Chalfont only taking 4 Car, a decision was taken to divert 2 of the Amersham trains to Chesham. So in effect the Amersham services were cut back.
     
  30. ChiefPlanner

    ChiefPlanner Established Member

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    Huge amounts of fresh air on the Watford service (which is nothing more than a reversing point after (really) Northwood , especially off peak. Whilst Harrow to Northwood has probably benefited , outer Metro-Land tends to focus on Chiltern , (largely) , which gives them crowding and not much of a revenue stream frankly Amersham to Harrow as they probably fail to get the full ORCATS / Travelcard allocation as it is done of "diaries" (hardly the best method to apportion actual travel journeys by choice of train) ...so I understand anyway.
     

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