Remaining Great Northern services post Thameslink to be rolled into London Overground and LNER?

[jon0844]

Oh I see. Yeah, cool, good idea, lol.
More seriously, unless something can be done about the platform capacity I can't see how more than 12tph can be achieved safely.

Hopefully the 717s will help by allowing more people on, and speeding up boarding. Of course the size of the platform will remain a constraint, especially when it comes to slowing down the driver changing ends.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

WGC then becomes the problem area. It's already a high-risk station due to the potential to cause chaos during disruption. If a train in Moorgate has a problem, trains can be diverted, or stops missed. That's all there is to mess up.

At WGC, especially with the shut downs and shunts, you've got various conflicts and scope for delays to many other services. There would need to be proper planning to go beyond 4 trains per hour.

If there was a way to bring trains into platform 1 at WGC to turn around, without the current in to platform 3/4, shut down, driver changes end, goes over the flyover, changes end, comes baqc into 1, changes end to start the next service.. then it might be more feasible. A driver is expected to take around 4 minutes to change end, and that's before comfort breaks, getting water etc.

You could have a driver at each end, but that's not going to happen (it does on a couple of services where the turnaround is tight, but that's it).

That’s nonsense. Just suitably time the trains to use Platform 4 and you can easily get up to 6tph in and out.

 

[bramling]

That’s nonsense. Just suitably time the trains to use Platform 4 and you can easily get up to 6tph in and out.

It's okay until something goes wrong. As soon as two terminating trains turn up together or one of the platforms becomes blocked for any reason there is a problem.

The new timetable is horribly messy at Welwyn, with shunts from platform 4 to 1, and other terminating services having to go in and out of the down sidings to clear the platforms. It's asking for trouble and I suspect it will be a location which will need changes in the future

 

[Roast Veg]

It's too bad the shunt isn't done at the north end of WGC, or you could employ an automatic system in the same style as Crossrail at Paddington.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It's okay until something goes wrong. As soon as two terminating trains turn up together or one of the platforms becomes blocked for any reason there is a problem.

The new timetable is horribly messy at Welwyn, with shunts from platform 4 to 1, and other terminating services having to go in and out of the down sidings to clear the platforms. It's asking for trouble and I suspect it will be a location which will need changes in the future

Disruption happens. You can’t stop a perfectly operable timetable just in case - otherwise we wouldn’t have Thameslink.

 

[Class 170101]

One scenario in which the Conservatives could win the London Mayor election is if people are sufficiently dismayed by cuts to bus services including the abolition of bus maps by Sadiq - and the Conservative candidate is Heidi Allen.

Heidi Allen. Not exactly well known in London. She is / was the Cambridge South MP last time I checked as I recall. Doesn't dound like the Tories are flushed with choice of local candidates for London.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Heidi Allen. Not exactly well known in London. She is / was the Cambridge South MP last time I checked as I recall. Doesn't dound like the Tories are flushed with choice of local candidates for London.

Heidi Allen has got no great connection to London.

I haven't given this any great thought, but on thinking about it just now the name of Justine Greening came to mind. Currently a Putney MP and lives in the constituency, has had a few Cabinet jobs (SoS for Transport, then International Development, then Education), has broadly liberal views compatible with the denizens of the metropolis, is a remainer, and seems like a competant operator.

Just thinking about possible candidates who might be a bit disenchanted with the national political scene, as was the case with say Andy Burnham who went off to become the first Mayor of Greater Manchester

 

[jon0844]

It's too bad the shunt isn't done at the north end of WGC, or you could employ an automatic system in the same style as Crossrail at Paddington.

You can do that, and recently it was done due to a points problem south of platform 4. I also believe that had to be done when a train derailed a year or two ago outside WGC. I don't think it's a favourable option and very much a last resort thing, given the conflicts.

I know you can't plan on the assumption there's always going to be disruption but as bramling has pointed out, there's so much scope for conflict with quite significant impacts that you can't be complacent either. It would be mad to have everything such high-risk planned in when, for now, it isn't necessary.

On Sunday, due to less movements northbound, many Moorgate services are starting on platform 3. A late arrival of the inbound service from MOG to sit on platform 4 means the departing train won't get a signal and waits (unless the inbound is seriously late, in which case I would hope common sense would get the train out first).

So here you have a potential delay of a couple of minutes that may impact services from Alexandra Palace to Moorgate, and then cause a further delay coming back to WGC - and repeat.

This is why there's the need to shunt on weekdays, but that then has its own problems if a train arrives late or there's a problem.

What would be wonderful is a platform 5 (not that there's enough room, but it's a fantasy solution!) so you can bring a train in and not have to shut it down. It can just sit as the next Moorgate train as and when. From then on, you could seek to ramp up the service frequency if 4tph becomes insufficient.

 

[Class 170101]

Heidi Allen has got no great connection to London.

I haven't given this any great thought, but on thinking about it just now the name of Justine Greening came to mind. Currently a Putney MP and lives in the constituency, has had a few Cabinet jobs (SoS for Transport, then International Development, then Education), has broadly liberal views compatible with the denizens of the metropolis, is a remainer, and seems like a competant operator.

Just thinking about possible candidates who might be a bit disenchanted with the national political scene, as was the case with say Andy Burnham who went off to become the first Mayor of Greater Manchester

Is Heidi a supporter of Heathrow expansion though? I know neither Justine Greening nor Zac Goldsmith are supporters of said project.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Is Heidi a supporter of Heathrow expansion though? I know neither Justine Greening nor Zac Goldsmith are supporters of said project.

This tweet from Heidi in October 2016 suggests she is a supporter of the third runway:

At last - we have made the decision....we are building a new runway at Heathrow!

That said, Sadiq Khan was a supporter of the third runway but changed his mind when it came to running for Mayor. (That said he was a junior minister for transport in the Brown government, so supporting government policy goes with the territory.)

Hard to imagine any potential London Mayoral candidate getting anywhere if they were to support expansion.

I assume any future Tory candidate won't go mad like Zac Goldsmith did, what with his very peculiar 'dog-whistle' style election campaign in 2016 which seemed rather out of character for him.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

You can do that, and recently it was done due to a points problem south of platform 4. I also believe that had to be done when a train derailed a year or two ago outside WGC. I don't think it's a favourable option and very much a last resort thing, given the conflicts.

I know you can't plan on the assumption there's always going to be disruption but as bramling has pointed out, there's so much scope for conflict with quite significant impacts that you can't be complacent either. It would be mad to have everything such high-risk planned in when, for now, it isn't necessary.

On Sunday, due to less movements northbound, many Moorgate services are starting on platform 3. A late arrival of the inbound service from MOG to sit on platform 4 means the departing train won't get a signal and waits (unless the inbound is seriously late, in which case I would hope common sense would get the train out first).

So here you have a potential delay of a couple of minutes that may impact services from Alexandra Palace to Moorgate, and then cause a further delay coming back to WGC - and repeat.

This is why there's the need to shunt on weekdays, but that then has its own problems if a train arrives late or there's a problem.

What would be wonderful is a platform 5 (not that there's enough room, but it's a fantasy solution!) so you can bring a train in and not have to shut it down. It can just sit as the next Moorgate train as and when. From then on, you could seek to ramp up the service frequency if 4tph becomes insufficient.

What would be really bloody good is if, now that Welwyn Sidings are barely needed, would be to switch the way the flyover works so that the trains can run straight into Platform 1 and also to stabling during the day and overnight on the old Up Sidings which is vast...

 

[Class 170101]

What would be really bloody good is if, now that Welwyn Sidings are barely needed, would be to switch the way the flyover works so that the trains can run straight into Platform 1 and also to stabling during the day and overnight on the old Up Sidings which is vast...

One platform on that side to reverse trains in though compared to the current downside where currently use of Platforms 3 and 4 is possible. Also the sidings next to Platform 1 are un-wired according to my old Quail map.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

One platform on that side to reverse trains in though compared to the current downside where currently use of Platforms 3 and 4 is possible. Also the sidings next to Platform 1 are un-wired according to my old Quail map.

Next time I’ll give you a detailed diagram, or an essay, as to what works would be required. Congratulations on being able to use Quail.

 

[jon0844]

One platform on that side to reverse trains in though compared to the current downside where currently use of Platforms 3 and 4 is possible. Also the sidings next to Platform 1 are un-wired according to my old Quail map.

Correct about the lack of power. It also requires getting out to change points by hand, which would be fun! They stored the Hull Trains service that caught fire at Welwyn North there recently.

The way to speed things up would be for a train to come in to platform 3/4 and not be shut down, because it will form another public service. Simply give a PA message that the doors will be locked to allow the train to change platform, and shunt the train to platform 1 where the doors are released again.

But that's not allowed!

 

[transmanche]

The way to speed things up would be for a train to come in to platform 3/4 and not be shut down, because it will form another public service. Simply give a PA message that the doors will be locked to allow the train to change platform, and shunt the train to platform 1 where the doors are released again.

I haven't been to Welwyn GC for a long time, but why do trains need to shunt from platform 4 to platform 1? Surely they can arrive from Moorgate at platfrom 4, have the driver change ends and then depart towards Moorgate from platform 4 without needing to do any shunting? Or have I totally misunderstood?

 

[bramling]

I haven't been to Welwyn GC for a long time, but why do trains need to shunt from platform 4 to platform 1? Surely they can arrive from Moorgate at platfrom 4, have the driver change ends and then depart towards Moorgate from platform 4 without needing to do any shunting? Or have I totally misunderstood?

You are correct, however in this timetable many services need to shunt in order to clear the platforms for other services. Bear in mind in the peaks there are now 2tph Welwyn-KX, 2tph KX-Cambridge/Cambridge North, plus the Moorgate services, all using two down platforms.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't been to Welwyn GC for a long time, but why do trains need to shunt from platform 4 to platform 1? Surely they can arrive from Moorgate at platfrom 4, have the driver change ends and then depart towards Moorgate from platform 4 without needing to do any shunting? Or have I totally misunderstood?

They didn't, until now. On Sunday, they alternate between platforms 3 and 4 (because there's only 1tph northbound using platform 3). In the week, platform 3 isn't an option most of the time so 1 is now used a lot.

There are also some WGC to KGX services, as well as KGX to WGC trains that will terminate and go out of service, so one platform needs to kept clear to allow for that - and in the week there are northbound services. It's quite tight, and I assume the timetable is taking into account the fact that next year those WGC-KGX trains will be going to Sevenoaks and back.

 

[bramling]

They didn't, until now. On Sunday, they alternate between platforms 3 and 4 (because there's only 1tph northbound using platform 3). In the week, platform 3 isn't an option most of the time so 1 is now used a lot.

There are also some WGC to KGX services, as well as KGX to WGC trains that will terminate and go out of service, so one platform needs to kept clear to allow for that - and in the week there are northbound services. It's quite tight, and I assume the timetable is taking into account the fact that next year those WGC-KGX trains will be going to Sevenoaks and back.

The timetable appears to have been written to require minimal change as more services go into Thameslink. The Welwyns can quite happily get diverted to and from Sevenoaks with only minor diagram adjustments to separate off the Cambridge KX service. Likewise the second Cambridge to Brighton just fits in as extra services.

 

[JaJaWa]

Minister backs TfL inner-suburban takeover plan

23/06/2020

Great Northern inner-suburban trains could be operated by Transport for London by September 2022, Rail Minister Chris Heaton-Harris has confirmed.

In a letter dated June 19 to Heidi Alexander, Deputy Mayor, Transport and Deputy Chairwoman, Transport for London, the Rail Minister wrote: “As you know, TfL has submitted a Strategic Outline Business Case for the devolution of these services. This has now been reviewed by my officials, and I have been advised of the potential benefits of devolution and the challenges which would need to be overcome to deliver a successful transfer to TfL.”

The services run from Moorgate and London King’s Cross as far north as Letchworth Garden City. The idea of transferring them from Govia Thameslink Railway to TfL was put forward by former Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling in 2018, following the collapse of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise and the possibility of other GN routes being added to that operation at a later date. It had also been suggested in the Gibb report looking at GTR, published the year before.

However, Heaton-Harris warns that the decision to explore TfL taking over the GN Inners does not necessarily imply that other rail operations identified by TfL would be devolved in the future.

As for costs, he wrote that it was assumed any transfer would be cost-neutral for Government. But now that the Department for Transport is providing emergency funding for TfL, the Minister wants it set out how the costs would work in practice, including a consideration of the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic and how costs can be controlled.

However, he warns: “Before any date of transfer is determined I would like to be assured that we can achieve all we need to in terms of deliverability and that there would be no detrimental impact on passengers in terms of service.”

Source: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/minister-backs-tfl-inner-suburban-takeover-plan

 

[Simon11]

I can't see this happening with the state of finances at TfL? Seems an unnecessary risk and potential for cost overrun with little benefit.

 

[Horizon22]

Certainly seems more receptive to the idea than previously. Obviously GTR is due to broken up anyway so its more natural timing. However as above, I can't imagine TfL wanting to touch this with a barge pole in current circumstances, or perhaps cynically they want to force even more economic risk onto TfL.

 

[Hadders]

I’m neutral on whether a TfL takeover of the Moorgate Lines would be a good thing.

On the one hand GTR have done all the ‘dirty’ work of replacing trains, improving infrastructure etc (OK Network Rail but passengers will think it’s GTR) only for TfL to come in and take the glory.

TfL is strapped for cash so ultimately I guess it comes down to whether the Moorgate Lines make an operating profit.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seems an unnecessary risk and potential for cost overrun with little benefit.

Is it a risk? Brand new rolling stock, well used services, a signalling upgrade funding by Central Government in the offing doesn't exactly scream massive risk to me. If anything I'd have thought that the Moorgate services would be turning a profit before too long...

 

[Mikey C]

Other than the latest TfL Overground trains having a much nicer livery than the dull one on the 717s, I can't see much else changing

 

[DJ_K666]

Absolutely. Finally into the hands of an operator that actually gives a damn.

The possible transfer of the remaining GN services to KX over to the new LNER operator (and thus the future franchisee) is interesting -like others have said, it would provide some financial stability for that franchise.

Well I hope you're right and I hope it means that we can be rid of GTR and the useless Southern. A truly dreadful company that would struggle to run a bath. They certainly struggle to run trains efficiently

 

[matt_world2004]

Is it a risk? Brand new rolling stock, well used services, a signalling upgrade funding by Central Government in the offing doesn't exactly scream massive risk to me. If anything I'd have thought that the Moorgate services would be turning a profit before too long...

I would imagine the serious amount of remedial works on the stations and tunnels will now fall on TfLs lap. There is still an argument as to who will pay for the lifts to the great Northern Platforms at moorgate

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well I hope you're right and I hope it means that we cal be rid of GTR and the useless Southern. A truly dreadful company that would struggle to run a bath. They certainly struggle to run trains efficiently

How much of the problems with GTR is their fault?

 

[Bald Rick]

Well I hope you're right and I hope it means that we can be rid of GTR and the useless Southern. A truly dreadful company that would struggle to run a bath. They certainly struggle to run trains efficiently

How often have you used them in the last few years?

 

[DJ_K666]

Trust me I suffered their dreadful 'service' along the coast daily for three years. I have good reason to hate them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it a risk? Brand new rolling stock, well used services, a signalling upgrade funding by Central Government in the offing doesn't exactly scream massive risk to me. If anything I'd have thought that the Moorgate services would be turning a profit before too long...

Yet the rest of the Overground, most of which similarly has new trains (or soon will do), mostly new signalling, and in the core East London Line’s case all new infrastructure, loses cash hand over fist.