Renfe scrapping all sleeper services

[popeter45]

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/soci...s-renfe-tren-hotel-crisis-coronavirus-7975407

Renfe does not plan to put its 'hotel train' back into circulation once rail traffic resumes after the state of alarm, which could thus mean the definitive disappearance of this historic night service, according to sources in the sector.

The operator rules out recovering, at least in the short term, these trains, mainly due to economic criteria, given the particular impact that the health crisis is having on the transport sector.

The railway company recorded an annual loss of around 25 million euros for the provision of the 'hotel train' service, despite the fact that in recent years it had already been reduced...

Renfe are using the current slowdown in traffic to axe the train hotel services permanently

 

[trebor79]

That's really sad news. I used the Paris to Madrid service back in 2011. I know that one stopped a few years ago, bit when I used it it was very busy and an excellent service.

 

[30907]

El coronavirus se lleva por delante el 'tren hotel' de Renfe

Renfe no prevé volver a poner en circulación su 'tren hotel' una vez reanude el tráfico ferroviario tras el estado de alarma, lo que podría así suponer la definitiva desaparición de este histórico servicio

www.elperiodico.com

Renfe are using the current slowdown in traffic to axe the train hotel services permanently

It says "at least temporarily" but IIRC RENFE were already planning to convert a number of Trenhotel sets for daytime use.
Maybe the two Lisbon services will survive - it is specifically the internal services which the article is about, and they would certainly not survive once the HSL to the NW is finally completed.

 

[jamesontheroad]

This is a great shame. It also misses a great opportunity for the medium-term - for intercity train travel in the next 12-24 months, I would feel much safer travelling in a private sleeping compartment instead of an open daytime seated carriage.

How many sleeper sets does RENFE have? Will they be converted, as 30907 suggests, or put up for sale? Would any other operator be interested to take them on? Remember that DB and DSB both have daytime Talgo rolling stock on order.

 

[popeter45]

This is a great shame. It also misses a great opportunity for the medium-term - for intercity train travel in the next 12-24 months, I would feel much safer travelling in a private sleeping compartment instead of an open daytime seated carriage.

How many sleeper sets does RENFE have? Will they be converted, as 30907 suggests, or put up for sale? Would any other operator be interested to take them on? Remember that DB and DSB both have daytime Talgo rolling stock on order.

the Talgo IV's used are the same age as BR Mark 3 SLE's and also are Iberian Gauge so prob for the scrapheap sadly

 

[Giugiaro]

The two Talgo sets that were being used for the Lusitânia and Sud-Express standing in Spain are on their way to the scrapyard, according to what people are telling on the Portugal Ferroviário forum.

The two sets that were left in Lisbon are sitting still.

Since the Sud-Express is entirely run by Portugal, and there are two sets of Talgo Sleeper Trains leased by CP, at least that one train is expected to return as soon as possible.

If only the French stopped being so stubborn and allow the train to go to Paris...

 

[30907]

How many sleeper sets does RENFE have? Will they be converted, as 30907 suggests, or put up for sale? Would any other operator be interested to take them on? Remember that DB and DSB both have daytime Talgo rolling stock on order.

I am no expert on Spain, but this Talgo press release https://www.talgo.com/en/communicat...a-107-million-contract-for-the-conversion-of/
says it is the newest Series 7 stock that will be converted -13 of 19 sets with an option on the last 6.
I believe the Series 7 stock is only required for the Barcelona-NW route, which would equal the 6 sets.
I would guess that older, not yet life-expired, sets are/were used on the Madrid-NW routes and the Lisbon sets are certainly elderly. Maybe someone on here can fill in the detail?

 

[skyhigh]

Apologies for resurrecting an older thread, but does anyone have any more information if/when the Sud Express might resume? Thanks

 

[duesselmartin]

I read somewhere that it suppose to resume in 2021.
The sleeper is also the only direct train from Lisboa to Madrid, a fact I never understood. Surely the market for at least one day train must exist?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I read somewhere that it suppose to resume in 2021.
The sleeper is also the only direct train from Lisboa to Madrid, a fact I never understood. Surely the market for at least one day train must exist?

Is that historical? On account of which decent routes exist? I travelled from Madrid to Lisbon on a through train once, about 50 years back, and that was an overnighter with a late evening departure from Madrid. I don't remember there being a direct day train then. (Though my memory could be wrong, and I know I was very keen to get to Lisbon asap, having only got to Madrid that evening on a horrendous all-day train from Barcelona.

 

[duesselmartin]

My recolection is that the day train was scrapped aprox 25 years ago.

 

[RT4038]

Is that historical? On account of which decent routes exist? I travelled from Madrid to Lisbon on a through train once, about 50 years back, and that was an overnighter with a late evening departure from Madrid. I don't remember there being a direct day train then. (Though my memory could be wrong, and I know I was very keen to get to Lisbon asap, having only got to Madrid that evening on a horrendous all-day train from Barcelona.

In the Cook's timetable for March 1973, there was a day train (09h35 from Madrid Chamartin/08h30 from Lisbon S.Apol.) taking approx 10 hours. The routeing was via Caceres-Valencia de Alcantara-Torre das Vargens-Entroncamento. . The night train ("Lusitania") went this route too.

In July 1987 it was still running (approximately) like this, but by May 1992 had become the "Luis de Camoes" Talgo train (13h55 from Madrid Charmartin/12h15 from Lisbon S.Apol) with a journey time of about 8 hours. By January 1995 the Saturday service had been withdrawn, and by October 1998 had gone completely, replaced by connections at Entroncamento and Badajoz.

 

[AlbertBeale]

In the Cook's timetable for March 1973, there was a day train (09h35 from Madrid Chamartin/08h30 from Lisbon S.Apol.) taking approx 10 hours. The routeing was via Caceres-Valencia de Alcantara-Torre das Vargens-Entroncamento. . The night train ("Lusitania") went this route too.

In July 1987 it was still running (approximately) like this, but by May 1992 had become the "Luis de Camoes" Talgo train (13h55 from Madrid Charmartin/12h15 from Lisbon S.Apol) with a journey time of about 8 hours. By January 1995 the Saturday service had been withdrawn, and by October 1998 had gone completely, replaced by connections at Entroncamento and Badajoz.

Thanks for the info - so I guess I could have used a day train back then; so it might have been my eagerness to get to Lisbon!

 

[30907]

Thanks for the info - so I guess I could have used a day train back then; so it might have been my eagerness to get to Lisbon!

There is a recently-added daytime connection via Merida-Badajoz-Entroncamento with 3 changes and a note in the ERT saying "connection not guaranteed" which would certainly put me off using it! It takes 11 hours compared with the express coach in 8, so even a through train wouldn't be competitive

 

[RT4038]

There is a recently-added daytime connection via Merida-Badajoz-Entroncamento with 3 changes and a note in the ERT saying "connection not guaranteed" which would certainly put me off using it! It takes 11 hours compared with the express coach in 8, so even a through train wouldn't be competitive

This connection via the Entroncamento-Badajoz line was suspended in 2012 (when Portugal was going through a financial crisis), but reinstated in 2018.

 

[trivran]

And in the interim was still vaguely kind of possible but a candidate for the faff of the year awards.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

One would suppose there is significant demand for travel between the Iberian capitals

Indeed, one may fly from 'MAD' to Lisboa for $10

 

[trivran]

One would suppose there is significant demand for travel between the Iberian capitals

Indeed, one may fly from 'MAD' to Lisboa for $10

And yet the rail offer remains so poor, and the prospect of any sort of HSR was killed off by the financial crisis. Even right now a 'day train' would still take forever.

 

[RT4038]

And yet the rail offer remains so poor, and the prospect of any sort of HSR was killed off by the financial crisis. Even right now a 'day train' would still take forever.

Such is the problem in many parts of Europe [ and elsewhere in the world] where there are no High Speed lines - the journeys take too long , so the price conscious go by bus often at similar journey times (or even cheap advance flights) and everyone else by plane. The train can't compete with the bus because its costs are too high, with the price conscious market not being big enough to fill long trains which would get the unit price down. This particularly affects International services, where there is less likely to be social reasons to shell out the sort of subsidies that these services would require.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Such is the problem in many parts of Europe [ and elsewhere in the world] where there are no High Speed lines - the journeys take too long , so the price conscious go by bus often at similar journey times (or even cheap advance flights) and everyone else by plane. The train can't compete with the bus because its costs are too high, with the price conscious market not being big enough to fill long trains which would get the unit price down. This particularly affects International services, where there is less likely to be social reasons to shell out the sort of subsidies that these services would require.

In order to be a reasonable journey time, the Madrid-Lisbon distance doesn't require a high-speed line all the way (in the sense of the sort of very-high-speed being planned for things like HS2). If the line was upgraded to be a decent one of similar standard to many existing ordinary long distance lines in the UK, a service that didn't have many stops could do the connection in not much more than 4 hours. Certainly the existing 11 hours with 3 changes is simply silly.

 

[Memma]

Such a shame - losing the night trains to Lisbon will no doubt be a hit to Portugal which misses out not only on the Lisbon bound trains but also the Tren-Hotel's to Vigo which connected to northern Portugal.

Looks like a long day on regional trains is the only route left?

 

[RT4038]

In order to be a reasonable journey time, the Madrid-Lisbon distance doesn't require a high-speed line all the way (in the sense of the sort of very-high-speed being planned for things like HS2). If the line was upgraded to be a decent one of similar standard to many existing ordinary long distance lines in the UK, a service that didn't have many stops could do the connection in not much more than 4 hours. Certainly the existing 11 hours with 3 changes is simply silly.

You may well be right, but an upgrade to this line is not going to be seen as a priority to either national governments. How much money has been spent on equivalent UK lines to get such a journey time? With the 8 hr. best journey time using Talgo stock in 1980s, achieving not much more than 4 hours seems like a lot of work!

Such a shame - losing the night trains to Lisbon will no doubt be a hit to Portugal which misses out not only on the Lisbon bound trains but also the Tren-Hotel's to Vigo which connected to northern Portugal.

Looks like a long day on regional trains is the only route left?

Bearing in mind the small number of people using the Sleeping Car trains and the Tren-Hotel, I doubt that Portugal will be much 'hit' in the grand scheme of things. Sadly, these trains are obsolete in today's world.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think work is still in progress on the new/reinstated route via Badajos and Evora on a "fast" alignment (the "International South" line).
The main purpose is for a freight route to the port of Sines south of Lisbon.
It was to be a 2-track standard gauge route but will now be a single track broad gauge line.
Whether it will ever carry a passenger service is debateable.

Évora – Elvas cut-off contract awarded

PORTUGAL: Road and rail infrastructure manager Infraestruturas de Portugal has awarded a contract for construction of a further section of the 80 km Évora - Elvas cut off, which is intended to form the centrepiece of the so-called International South Corridor linking Lisboa to the Spanish border...

www.railwaygazette.com

 

[RT4038]

I think work is still in progress on the new/reinstated route via Badajos and Evora on a "fast" alignment (the "International South" line).
The main purpose is for a freight route to the port of Sines south of Lisbon.
It was to be a 2-track standard gauge route but will now be a single track broad gauge line.
Whether it will ever carry a passenger service is debateable.

Évora – Elvas cut-off contract awarded

PORTUGAL: Road and rail infrastructure manager Infraestruturas de Portugal has awarded a contract for construction of a further section of the 80 km Évora - Elvas cut off, which is intended to form the centrepiece of the so-called International South Corridor linking Lisboa to the Spanish border...

www.railwaygazette.com

We can but hope......

 

[Dumpton Park]

A shame to see the Lusitania go, if Renfe have managed to get rid of it. It used to be an outstanding way to spend a weekend in Lisbon from Madrid, with 2 nights Gran Clase in the train and 1 in a 4* hotel being a very good deal for some years - not least as dinner and breakfast (when there was a full dining car) and unlimited drinks were included in the package!

That said, one of only two times* I've thought I was in a derailment was on the Lusi, somewhere quite near the border when something happened that lifted the wheelset nearest us so far into the air I thought we were off.

DP

*The other was hitting what sounded like ballast but turned out to be a dog in a 375 in Sevenoaks tunnel on a Boxing Day some years ago. The sound of our running over it has stayed with me.

 

[Giugiaro]

CP wanted to keep these services whenever they were profitable or not.
But since the units used on this service were from RENFE (and traction is taken care off by the latter in Spain) they've, somewhat un-politely, asked them to be returned.

RENFE and the Spanish Government have no incentive to invest in links to Portugal since it would attract far more Spanish tourists than the other way around, and Portuguese seaports will compete fiercely against Spanish alternatives if they have a reliable rail link to Central Europe.

 

[duesselmartin]

Yes, it is surprising how those neighbours live back to back, not just in rail terms.

 

[popeter45]

CP wanted to keep these services whenever they were profitable or not.
But since the units used on this service were from RENFE (and traction is taken care off by the latter in Spain) they've, somewhat un-politely, asked them to be returned.

RENFE and the Spanish Government have no incentive to invest in links to Portugal since it would attract far more Spanish tourists than the other way around, and Portuguese seaports will compete fiercely against Spanish alternatives if they have a reliable rail link to Central Europe.

what Legal/Political Recourse would Portugal potentially have surrounding this?
I could see Portugal Fighting this as is seriously cuts off Portugal from the EU Passenger Rail market
either to get RENFE to offer a daytime direct link between Madrid and Lisbon or allow Portugal to fully operate the service even inside Spain

 

[Austriantrain]

Bearing in mind the small number of people using the Sleeping Car trains and the Tren-Hotel, I doubt that Portugal will be much 'hit' in the grand scheme of things. Sadly, these trains are obsolete in today's world.

There is a large part of Europe which proves you wrong; namely Central Europe, where international trains are still plentiful, well patronized and, though not entirely, in significant parts operated without PSO (and with bus competition).

Of course there still is an important enough market for those trains left. Many medium-sized cities are not connected by plane, and not everybody wants to take a bus or drive themselves.

The difference between those countries and another places like France, Italy and Spain is that in those latter places, state incumbents have been allowed to operate as private monopolies without any kind of regulation. Italy and now Spain have tried to remedy this by injecting competition, but this is limited to High-Speed-Lines and not much use on the rest of the network.

The absurdity of it is plainly seen in a case mentioned in another thread - although London - Marseille - Nice could have an attractive offer with a change in Lille, it is getting more difficult each year because SNCF is reducing services or transferring them to Ouigo.

In the same Spirit, a train Madrid - Lisboa is seen as unattractive because only the two capital cities are regarded - as if there are not enough intermediate cities, some of them quite large, which would deserve and justify international connections.

The idea that only HSR can compete, is, in any case, plain wrong and even if it were true, mostly useless, since building HSL is so hugely expensive and can therefore only be justified on a few major routes.

 

[RT4038]

There is a large part of Europe which proves you wrong; namely Central Europe, where international trains are still plentiful, well patronized and, though not entirely, in significant parts operated without PSO (and with bus competition).

Of course there still is an important enough market for those trains left. Many medium-sized cities are not connected by plane, and not everybody wants to take a bus or drive themselves.

The difference between those countries and another places like France, Italy and Spain is that in those latter places, state incumbents have been allowed to operate as private monopolies without any kind of regulation. Italy and now Spain have tried to remedy this by injecting competition, but this is limited to High-Speed-Lines and not much use on the rest of the network.

The absurdity of it is plainly seen in a case mentioned in another thread - although London - Marseille - Nice could have an attractive offer with a change in Lille, it is getting more difficult each year because SNCF is reducing services or transferring them to Ouigo.

In the same Spirit, a train Madrid - Lisboa is seen as unattractive because only the two capital cities are regarded - as if there are not enough intermediate cities, some of them quite large, which would deserve and justify international connections.

The idea that only HSR can compete, is, in any case, plain wrong and even if it were true, mostly useless, since building HSL is so hugely expensive and can therefore only be justified on a few major routes.

I am not sure what effect the International trains of Central Europe have on Portugal? None I should think. So how are thy relevant to this thread, or how they prove my assertion is wrong that the withdrawal of Sleeping Car trains and Tren-Hotel will not have 'hit' Portugal in the grand scheme of things?

The geography, demographics and political history of Spain and Portugal are completely different to that of Central Europe. There has been International through trains between Madrid and Lisbon, and other International connections, but this has now dwindled to very little, presumably due to lack of use. So their withdrawal will have been a political decision not to provide subsidies (or PSO or whatever you want to call it) .

what Legal/Political Recourse would Portugal potentially have surrounding this?
I could see Portugal Fighting this as is seriously cuts off Portugal from the EU Passenger Rail market
either to get RENFE to offer a daytime direct link between Madrid and Lisbon or allow Portugal to fully operate the service even inside Spain

Hazarding a guess, it is probably not legal recourse that is required, but stumping up the cash! I expect that Spain has taken the political decision not to continue paying for their side of the service (in all or part), but I am sure that if Portugal sees it as a vital public service they could pay the difference. But presumably they don't?