Renfe scrapping all sleeper services

[SHD]

Entertain us, what are the « quite large » cities (you imply that there are several of them) on the current railway line between Madrid and Lisboa?

 

[83G/84D]

That's really sad news. I used the Paris to Madrid service back in 2011. I know that one stopped a few years ago, bit when I used it it was very busy and an excellent service.

Agree with you, I used it 2012 and loved it.

 

[gingerheid]

what Legal/Political Recourse would Portugal potentially have surrounding this?
I could see Portugal Fighting this as is seriously cuts off Portugal from the EU Passenger Rail market
either to get RENFE to offer a daytime direct link between Madrid and Lisbon or allow Portugal to fully operate the service even inside Spain

It was the Portuguese that cancelled the Lisbon - Madrid high speed line. They don't seem to care about train connections that much

 

[Giugiaro]

We are going to have to get our own rolling stock to make the whole journey if RENFE can't be relied on.
Same with drivers. The Spanish section does not have EBICAB 700 or ERTMS installed.

Of the two, the Lusitania was frequently completely booked.

 

[Austriantrain]

I am not sure what effect the International trains of Central Europe have on Portugal? None I should think. So how are thy relevant to this thread, or how they prove my assertion is wrong that the withdrawal of Sleeping Car trains and Tren-Hotel will not have 'hit' Portugal in the grand scheme of things?

The geography, demographics and political history of Spain and Portugal are completely different to that of Central Europe. There has been International through trains between Madrid and Lisbon, and other International connections, but this has now dwindled to very little, presumably due to lack of use. So their withdrawal will have been a political decision not to provide subsidies (or PSO or whatever you want to call it) .

And my point was - and still stands, because I was referring to you saying such trains were obsolete - that (in my opinion, of course) hit as nothing to do with lack of use or indeed obsolence, but with the fact that RENFE, for far too long, has been allowed to operate as a „private“ monopoly. Huge amounts of money have been poured into little-used HSL and except on very few routes, train offer is abominable. There is nothing natural about it, it is the consequence of allowing a publicly-owned company to operate like a private buccaneer. No PSO money whatsoever would have been needed, had RENFE, in return for its monopoly, been obliged to run more services (incidentally, that is how the UK system works...the GWR branches and the Far North line are not operated out of private idealism).

Central Europe was by way of example. I am aware of course of the demographic differences; I just don’t happen to think that is the reason why Madrid - Lisbon trains have been cancelled.

It was the Portuguese that cancelled the Lisbon - Madrid high speed line. They don't seem to care about train connections that much

I think they realized that such an HSL would be extremely expensive and very little-used. HSR is not the answer to everything.

Instead, Badajoz is supposed to receive a rail link to Portugal again, mostly for freight, but it would serve well for Madrid - Lisbon passenger trains as well.

 

[RT4038]

And my point was - and still stands, because I was referring to you saying such trains were obsolete - that (in my opinion, of course) hit as nothing to do with lack of use or indeed obsolence, but with the fact that RENFE, for far too long, has been allowed to operate as a „private“ monopoly. Huge amounts of money have been poured into little-used HSL and except on very few routes, train offer is abominable. There is nothing natural about it, it is the consequence of allowing a publicly-owned company to operate like a private buccaneer. No PSO money whatsoever would have been needed, had RENFE, in return for its monopoly, been obliged to run more services (incidentally, that is how the UK system works...the GWR branches and the Far North line are not operated out of private idealism).

I think they realized that such an HSL would be extremely expensive and very little-used. HSR is not the answer to everything.

Instead, Badajoz is supposed to receive a rail link to Portugal again, mostly for freight, but it would serve well for Madrid - Lisbon passenger trains as well.

My reference was that Sleeping Car trains are obsolete.

RENFE is a publicly owned company, so therefore it is a political decision of the country of Spain to concentrate long distance passenger service on HSL lines. The train offer in Spain has never been particularly good (compared to Central European standards), with much of the country very sparsely populated and most of the population concentrated in a few areas. I would guess that without the HSR lines, the premium rail traffic would have all migrated to air, and the budget traveller to bus (which would not have been that much slower than rail), probably meaning that virtually none of the lines would have made any money to be cross-subsidising the lines in the sparsely populated areas.
I do not think that RENFE is making much profits to return to the government, unless you know otherwise. Therefore its ability to internally cross-subsidise minor services must be fairly small, or non-existent. I expect there are already plenty of subsidies in place. However, by running HSR service, it is carrying many more passengers than it would have done if only the slower conventional lines were being used.

Both Portugal and Spain have publicly owned and funded rail systems. It is a political decision not to operate a train service between Madrid and Lisbon, as clearly subsidy would be required. Presumably it is not seen as a priority to spend public money on? There is some discussion further up this thread as to why this might be.

 

[Austriantrain]

@RT4038

Perfectly legitimate view. Even though I will probably never get around to understanding why pouring billions and billions of whatever currency into sparsely used HSL is seen as great (and I am not, of course talking about Madrid - Barcelona, Roma - Milan or London - Manchester, these are great Investments) where as the (comparatively) tiny amounts needed for some basic PSO services tend to be attacked as poor value for money, market distorsion and the like. But enough said.

 

[RT4038]

@RT4038

Perfectly legitimate view. Even though I will probably never get around to understanding why pouring billions and billions of whatever currency into sparsely used HSL is seen as great (and I am not, of course talking about Madrid - Barcelona, Roma - Milan or London - Manchester, these are great Investments) where as the (comparatively) tiny amounts needed for some basic PSO services tend to be attacked as poor value for money, market distorsion and the like. But enough said.

Politics, I expect. Every country has its own circumstances - I guess that Spain has a history of separatism and fragmentation, and building HSL to one part and not another sends a particular signal???? Capital expenditure [Investment, building High Speed lines] and Current expenditure [Subsidy, ongoing PSO on uneconomic services] is accounted for differently; even though it is all money to you and me!

 

[Austriantrain]

Politics, I expect. Every country has its own circumstances - I guess that Spain has a history of separatism and fragmentation, and building HSL to one part and not another sends a particular signal???? Capital expenditure [Investment, building High Speed lines] and Current expenditure [Subsidy, ongoing PSO on uneconomic services] is accounted for differently; even though it is all money to you and me!

I do understand the politics. What I do not understand in Spain is why the services on many such new lines are so sparse, even though (pre-Covid) trains seem to be full. Some time ago I could barely find a seat weeks (!) ahead on any Madrid - Galicia service, and even though journey times are now quite acceptable, train offer on Madrid - Bilbao, San Sebastián etc is still very bad. It is no wonder that it is becoming difficult to explain this to voters, and Spanish politics unfortunately nowadays reflect the citizens‘ distrust.

This is actually one of the main reasons why a day to Lisbon would be more than useful - I am not quite sure that Extremadura voters really are delighted that they see vasts amount of money poured into a partial HSL that never seems to get finished, while their actual rail offering goes from bad to worse. Not having a train from the major city of Cáceres to Lisbon seems absurd, IMHO (and no, I am of course not talking about a Central European-Style Takt with two-hourly services, a couple of trains a day would do fine).

 

[Stephen Lee]

what about the Zurich-Barcelona's sleeper? or it will be revived as NightJet?

 

[Austriantrain]

what about the Zurich-Barcelona's sleeper? or it will be revived as NightJet?

There is a plan to do it; we will see how it goes.