Replacements for the class 444's, class 450's, Class 220's, Class 221's, and class 222's.

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by GBRailfreight, 12 Mar 2018.

  1. GBRailfreight

    GBRailfreight On Moderation

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    I Recently been on about this Topic for a Long time with Friends, But the main question is, What trains are gonna be replacing the Locomotive Class as said in the Title, But will the Class 444's and 450's ever get scrapped? Also, I'm still Curious about the Class 73 owned by South Western Railway, Does anyone know its location and if its still in service,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 13 Mar 2018
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  3. AlanFry1

    AlanFry1 On Moderation

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    Why do 444s and 450s need to be scrapped?
     
  4. superalbs

    superalbs Established Member

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    In many years yes, most/all of them will be.

    As for what will actually replace them, it's probably a train family that we hasn't even been developed yet.
     
  5. cj_1985

    cj_1985 Member

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    73235 is still located at Bournemouth depot.
    IIRC it's there for shunting stock.

    Despite reports elsewhere, it's recent repaint into all over blue (with yellow warning panels) was carried out prior to First/MTR taking over the franchise
     
  6. bastien

    bastien Member

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    Stored Pacers, most likely.
     
  7. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Class 442s converted from Mk3 HST coaches.
     
  8. Class465fan

    Class465fan Member

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    Or bi mode 442s<D
     
  9. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    The 444s and 450s are covered by a Section 54 agreement through to 2025, with the maintenance contract with Siemens covering the same period.
     
  10. dorsetdesiro

    dorsetdesiro Member

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    The 444s and 450s are not even 20 years old that the nearly 30 year old 442s are coming back to South Western Railway...

    I don't believe the 442s/444s/450s will be replaced in this franchise as there is only 6 years left, I'd be surprised if every train gets the new SWR livery applied to it at the end of the franchise in 2024 as FirstGroup are said to be slow with re-branding which there are some GWR trains still going around in the old FGW livery.

    The 442s/444s/450s probably will get replaced in the next franchise after 2024, most likely by intercity type Aventras or Siemens' rival equivalent. This'd better not be Desiro City 700s a la Thameslink!
     
  11. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    You don't believe they will be replaced in this franchise? They won't be. End of.

    As for relivery, the 442s are being painted as part of their refurbishment, the 444s and 450s are committed for repaint, the 159/0s are in progress and the suburban fleet is being replaced. Just leaves a handful of 158s and 159/1s, which will probably get vinyls to standardise the fleet.
     
  12. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Rubbish. The 444 and 450 could easily still be in use in 25 years time. I doubt very much that it will take 6 years for them to be reliveried either, as they are definitely staying. GWR were in a completely different position, with their future DMU and HST numbers being unconfirmed for a long time...
     
    Last edited: 13 Mar 2018
  13. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    That depends if they are replacing 450s on high-density services, - given that SWT purchased the 707s, in part for that purpose. They are surprisingly very similar to class700s. :)
     
  14. dorsetdesiro

    dorsetdesiro Member

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    Whoa, whoa, steady there...

    As the older 442s are being brought back then obviously there wouldn't be plans to replace the 444s and 450s in this franchise.

    Yes, I do agree the 444s and 450s could be run for another 25 years or more, If I were running the next franchise then this would definitely be the case.

    The trusty old 442s are of course not going to the scrapheap just yet that I like to think if the 444s/450s are still running in 20 years time these would be just as reliable as the 442.

    We all honestly do not know what will happen in the next franchise, so many possibilities and surprises like the very new 707s suddenly on their way out being replaced by 701s in only two years time, this news did take some people by surprise.

    There seems to be a gaggle of TOCs going for brand new trains with thanks to cheap loans so who knows the next SW franchise holder (or FirstGroup if they win again) may do the same by replacing the 158/159/442/444/450s?

    Greater Anglia are replacing the Stansted Express Electrostars with new Stadler FLIRTs, these are younger than the 444s/450s.

    Given how quickly the 707s are being replaced, far fetched this may sound, say if Stagecoach wins back the next franchise then they could replace the 701s with an improved version of 707s assembled in Siemens' new Yorkshire plant? We really don't know how things will turn out in 2025, will the Queen be alive then?
     
  15. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    The 444 and 450 together make up a large fleet, it's not as if there are benefits in having a unified fleet (as per the replacement of the 455s, 456s, 458s and 707s with one class)
     
  16. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    Well also the 220s, 221s and 222s also have 20 odd years left, so there will be nothing planned to replace them yet. Hopefully they get shifted to secondary services as they are wholly unsuitable for 'intercity ' trains, because of the noise pollution and interiors.
     
  17. Rail Blues

    Rail Blues Member

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    Okay the 220/221/222s are not without their faults, but for all that, they're not "totally unsuitable" and the problems you mention are a) an inevitable byproduct of DMUs and not something that concerns the everyday passenger. b) In my view an exaggeration and something that could largely addressed by a quality internal refurb.

    For their faults they are intercity DMUs and are best suited to that role, rather than a cascade to secondary services.
     
  18. xc170

    xc170 Member

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    Oh here we go...
     
  19. bastien

    bastien Member

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    Or how about... Old tube trains?
     
  20. Class465fan

    Class465fan Member

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    Bi mode 1972 stocks would work;)
     
  21. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

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    The 444s and 450s are going nowhere before the next franchise change, and how the next franchise pans out may be determined by the outcome of the next election so nobody knows what will happen. Personally I believe that the 442s are only a short term measure and won't last beyond 2025/26 with a large order for outer urban units may be the best option depending on finances at the time. I would expect the Rosco to offer the 444/450s on very favourable terms as I don't see a market for nearly 200 units anywhere else.
     
  22. bastien

    bastien Member

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    There should be LOADS of old tube trains going spare once the Independent City State of London switches over to Hyperloop and flying taxis.
     
  23. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    If now is the right time to be discussing full fleet replacement of SW 444 and 450, surely we could also justify proposing to replace all the 377s?

    I reckon the whole idea of anticipating "what ifs" about 20 years early is unnecessary.
     
  24. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Bi-mode or tri-mode Class 313's. Who needs a toilet on a long-distance train.... <D<D
     
  25. Class465fan

    Class465fan Member

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    Hauled by tri-mode class 86s to Exeter<D;)
     
  26. iantherev

    iantherev Member

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    Whatever replaces them, if this forum still exists, someone will be complaining about it..... ;)
     
  27. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    I might just have find an excuse to regularly travel on the SW main line if my train is being hauled by a Class 86. Mind you - wouldn't be the same on diesel...
     
  28. bastien

    bastien Member

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    However, by then the TOCs will have taken note of all the complaints about seating, and responded by removing the lot. Job done!
     
  29. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    I'd like Bi-mode 321's because they are my favorite EMU's and are the same age as me :lol:
     
  30. moley

    moley Member

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    Assuming things stay the same with 7 year franchises, the 442s and SWR diesel fleet are likely to be favourite for replacement in the 2024-2031 franchise.

    There after the 444s and 450s will hit 30 years old during the 2031-2038 franchise after all they are having their mid life refurbishment now.
     
  31. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    There could be a reasonable case for ditching the 444's as well as the 442's and 15x's and obtaining a fleet of 5 coach (23m long) bimodal units. You'd probably be looking at a fleet size of about 90-100 units (450-500 coaches).

    The 444's could then be used on any electric lines (as they could be converted to OHLE use fairly easily).

    That would give SWR/SWT a good sized fleet of go anywhere units to cover any possible longer distance services that they may wish to run. It could also bypass some of the power problems out to Weymouth.

    The 2031-2038 franchise could be interesting if Crossrail 2 opens in 2033. I would therefore expect that franchise to be shortened/previous ones lengths to enable a new timetable (and new stock) to be brought in near the beginning of a franchise if Crossrail 2 were to open earlier/later than this.

    As although it would remove a lot of metro services to TfL, the bigger change would be the upto 50% increase in frequency for many of the longer distance services through gaining more capacity into Waterloo.

    That could then allow a new version of the 444's to be created to replace some of the longer distance services run by 450's.
     

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