Replacements for the class 444's, class 450's, Class 220's, Class 221's, and class 222's?

[47802]

If the 442's are replaced in the next franchise its certainly possible that the 444 might get replaced as well for a standardised new fleet.

 

[GBRailfreight]

73235 is still located at Bournemouth depot.
IIRC it's there for shunting stock.

Despite reports elsewhere, it's recent repaint into all over blue (with yellow warning panels) was carried out prior to First/MTR taking over the franchise

Ok, Thanks for letting me Know mate..

 

[HowardGWR]

On the 220s and 221s, I think it is intriguing to speculate on what could be done to
a) increase their capacity
b) increase their comfort.
a) Can one easily add another car to these units? In the case of the 221s, would that have to be motorised? Could the electric pantograph bi-mode idea yet be usefully applied?
b) I don't know where to begin here. I have no idea why the toilets could not be replaced with retention kit that doesn't smell. As far as seating is concerned, perhaps only an extra coach would allow a a better seating layout that gave more room throughout and give some greater capacity to compensate for that lost.

 

[cj_1985]

On the 220s and 221s, I think it is intriguing to speculate on what could be done to
a) increase their capacity
b) increase their comfort.
a) Can one easily add another car to these units? In the case of the 221s, would that have to be motorised? Could the electric pantograph bi-mode idea yet be usefully applied?
b) I don't know where to begin here. I have no idea why the toilets could not be replaced with retention kit that doesn't smell. As far as seating is concerned, perhaps only an extra coach would allow a a better seating layout that gave more room throughout and give some grater capacity to compensate for that lost.

Totally agree about the 22x's, personally I wouldn't care if the carriages are built here, or in Belgium. Main this is to reduce diesel under the wire running, and to provide much needed capacity improvements.

But that's off topic

 

[cjmillsnun]

On the 220s and 221s, I think it is intriguing to speculate on what could be done to
a) increase their capacity
b) increase their comfort.
a) Can one easily add another car to these units? In the case of the 221s, would that have to be motorised? Could the electric pantograph bi-mode idea yet be usefully applied?
b) I don't know where to begin here. I have no idea why the toilets could not be replaced with retention kit that doesn't smell. As far as seating is concerned, perhaps only an extra coach would allow a a better seating layout that gave more room throughout and give some grater capacity to compensate for that lost.

Adding another car to a unit that is already 15+ years old is not cost effective. It was done to the 458s because there was similar age stock of a similar type that could be used. Even then it probably wasn't worth it as the 458/5s are probably the first of the stock SWR are going to replace.

To actually build new cars to put in formation isn't worth the cost.

However a gut and refit of the interior would be worth it. The have a reasonable specification they can follow. If they could produce a slightly higher density version of the 222 interior wise then they would be onto a winner.

 

[The Ham]

My view, which I've said in other threads, will be that the 22x's will end up being longer units by scraping end coaches.

A 10 coach 22x unit can have virtually the same seating capacity as a 9 coach 159 train (formed of 3 units).

 

[Wivenswold]

Or bi mode 442s

I think you'll find they will be classified as 742's when they're converted to bi or tri (hydrogen cell) modes. That's according to "Honest Bob" in the canteen anyway.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I travelled all the way from Tamworth to Durham and back on a Voyager this week and it was absolutely fine. There is so much nonsense talked about them. The only thing wrong with them is that are not long enough, they should all be 5 carriages long at least. I think they should be cascaded to routes like Cardiff to Nottingham, Birmingham to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when they can be.

 

[dm.701]

I have to agree with the above posts. Unpopular opinion but I find the Voyagers to be fine units that are in dire need of a quality refurbishment. They have been looking very tired internally for quite some time. Very disappointing that XC only refurbished first class on the units.

 

[nat67]

I would just take all the Voyagers and Meridians to Booths and that will be history for what they replaced. 442's are still excellent.

 

[JohnRegular]

The 444s and 450s are very good trains with a lot of life left in them. Move along, nothing more to see here...
The voyagers and meridians are also fundamentally good trains, despite what this forum seems to think. The only problems are the internal layout (including toilets), and more importantly, the length! It's been said before on this forum, but a new order of 802s or something similar for XC, enabling the voyagers to be permanently doubled up or reformed into longer formations, would solve the length problem nicely and reduce under the wires diesel running.

 

[jopsuk]

in my weird fantasy world "Project Thor" would have brought every 22x up to 8 carriages and bi-mode. They'd have been praised as an excellent IC fleet

 

[Dougal2345]

The voyagers and meridians are also fundamentally good trains, despite what this forum seems to think. The only problems are the internal layout (including toilets), and more importantly, the length!

Well there's also the smelliness, the engine noise, the claustrophobic sloping walls and low ceiling, the general plasticky nastiness of the interiors... but apart from all that, they're wonderful!

 

[bastien]

I travelled all the way from Tamworth to Durham and back on a Voyager this week and it was absolutely fine. There is so much nonsense talked about them. The only thing wrong with them is that are not long enough, they should all be 5 carriages long at least. I think they should be cascaded to routes like Cardiff to Nottingham, Birmingham to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when they can be.

The trick I found was to book an aisle airline seat, and sit in it. Half the time no one will take the window seat, and if they do you won't be blocked in if they set up house on the table and/or doze off..

 

[The Ham]

Well there's also the smelliness, the engine noise, the claustrophobic sloping walls and low ceiling, the general plasticky nastiness of the interiors... but apart from all that, they're wonderful!

The smell is in part down to that they are used a lot with little chance to empty the tanks as much as they need.

The engine noise would be less of a problem if they were used by people for shorter journeys (i.e. more for upto 2 hours rather than upto 4+ hours).

A high quality refurbishment would help with most of the rest of the issues, as would the trains having better capacity.

However comfort is a matter of opinion, I think that 22x's are more comfortable than Mark 4's. I'm sure there's many that would disagree with me.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I travelled all the way from Tamworth to Durham and back on a Voyager this week and it was absolutely fine. There is so much nonsense talked about them. The only thing wrong with them is that are not long enough, they should all be 5 carriages long at least. I think they should be cascaded to routes like Cardiff to Nottingham, Birmingham to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when they can be.

No good. They are too heavy for the Sprinter differentials so would be slower than the current services.

 

[The Ham]

No good. They are too heavy for the Sprinter differentials so would be slower than the current services.

I've suggested before that they could be used as a replacement for the Chiltern loco services. As if they were reformed so that each unit was the same length as the current number of coaches plus the loco and the DVT then there would be an increase in capacity without requiring platform lengthening.

Likewise, I'd also previously suggested, as a replacement for some of the 159's to Exeter. If they were turned as 10 coach units and ran 1/2 the current services with the other half being 10 coach 15x's trains there would likely be a small increase in peak hour capacity. It would mean a fairly big increase in capacity on some services west of Salisbury, but it could also allow a true 0.5tph Waterloo to Bristol on the 15x services AND free up DMU's for use elsewhere.

There's likely to be other opportunities for them, maybe on the North Wales Coast services (freeing up 175's) alternatively with GWR to replace their HST GTI's and/or for their Cardiff to Portsmouth services.

On the latter it could mean that there's a faster journey time over any sections which have speed limits of >90mph. However it should also be noted that the 22x's should also have a better 0-60 time than other DMU's so on services where there's several station stops but relatively few passengers boarding/alighting (say a total of 20 so that station stop time aren't impacted) they should be able to improve journey times or at least match them (if the top speed available to then isn't that far below the Springer differentials over any section).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It took me until July 2014 to properly enjoy the Voyagers. Until mid 2004, I couldn't cope with a Voyager journey. From mid 2004 to July 2014, I travelled on them better. I love / enjoy them in their own way - for example: Colourful modern interior, good leg room (non priority seats), refreshing smell on some of the trains, reliable air-conditioning system (which worked in around 30°C weather on the 19/07/16) and a good reliable vehicle all round really.

But if you're looking for a train with a relaxing journey in mind, then it's the older InterCity 125!

 

[cj_1985]

Off topic I know... But I also quite enjoy travelling on 22x's.
The seats are comfortable, WiFi is reliable, they're quick and I've never experienced any smell from toilets.

I wouldn't be surprised if , as has already been said, if the 442, 444 and 450 fleets are all replaced with a similar design unit. Just makes sense to standardise, as far as possible, on stock used by the franchise... All that'd be retained at that point would be the 701s and possibly the 15x's, if they haven't been replaced by then

 

[pt_mad]

I travelled all the way from Tamworth to Durham and back on a Voyager this week and it was absolutely fine. There is so much nonsense talked about them. The only thing wrong with them is that are not long enough, they should all be 5 carriages long at least. I think they should be cascaded to routes like Cardiff to Nottingham, Birmingham to Stansted and Liverpool to Norwich when they can be.

Trouble is they're not cleared for Stansted Airport station and it isn't possible for them to be apparently. Clearances. Only way it could be done is terminate the Birmingham Stansteds at Cambridge and I still have a feeling there's clearance problems on the route and some short platforms but someone else may be able to confirm re all stations to Cambridge?

 

[whhistle]

No good. They are too heavy for the Sprinter differentials so would be slower than the current services.

Hmm, the odd 220 that I see seems to do the same speed as the 170s that are usually on that route...

 

[Domh245]

Hmm, the odd 220 that I see seems to do the same speed as the 170s that are usually on that route...

Not sure what route you are talking about but that's probably because there aren't any sprinter differentials then!

 

[59CosG95]

Hmm, the odd 220 that I see seems to do the same speed as the 170s that are usually on that route...

Not so much a question of speed as a question of acceleration; 170s are lighter and quicker off the mark than the 22x fleet, but the problems are only really noticeable on 125mph-capable routes that the 2 classes share (which, IIRC, is only really Brum-Derby).

 

[hexagon789]

170s are lighter and quicker off the mark than the 22x fleet,

Lighter yes, but I'm pretty sure a 22x will put accelerate a 170, the 170s are very sluggish accelerators taking nearly 2 mins to attain 60 mph.

 

[hexagon789]

I vote new tri-mode HSTs with new power cars and re-used 442s for the intermediate coaches. A go anywhere replacement!

Presumably though when the time comes, dual-voltage EMUs will replace the 444s/450s and bi-modes the Voyagers and Meridians.

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably though when the time comes, dual-voltage EMUs will replace the 444s/450s

Bear in mind both classes were delivered fully capable of dual voltage conversion.
By the way, earlier suggestions that they be replaced for 'fleet commonality' purposes in the next franchise are possibly missing the point that they are already effectively a common fleet for maintenance, which consists of 172 units or 733 vehicles. The Aventra fleet in comparison will be a similar size at 750 vehicles, but based and maintained separately at the London end of the network. Why is any commonality needed?
It is only the 442s that will be a relatively small fleet.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Bear in mind both classes were delivered fully capable of dual voltage conversion.
By the way, earlier suggestions that they be replaced for 'fleet commonality' purposes in the next franchise are possibly missing the point that they are already effectively a common fleet for maintenance, which consists of 172 units or 733 vehicles. The Aventra fleet in comparison will be a similar size at 750 vehicles, but based and maintained separately at the London end of the network. Why is any commonality needed?
It is only the 442s that will be a relatively small fleet.

And that Microfleet could be dealt with by a bolt on order of 23m Aventras with end doors in the next franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

And that Microfleet could be dealt with by a bolt on order of 23m Aventras with end doors in the next franchise.

Of course, and you'd still have two main fleet types that each still had a critical mass. Swapping out 172 units 20 years early? Has seemed a pretty nonsensical idea since this thread started.

 

[hexagon789]

Bear in mind both classes were delivered fully capable of dual voltage conversion.
By the way, earlier suggestions that they be replaced for 'fleet commonality' purposes in the next franchise are possibly missing the point that they are already effectively a common fleet for maintenance, which consists of 172 units or 733 vehicles. The Aventra fleet in comparison will be a similar size at 750 vehicles, but based and maintained separately at the London end of the network. Why is any commonality needed?
It is only the 442s that will be a relatively small fleet.

I mean dual voltage fitted rather than dual voltage ready, the 444/450s don't have pantographs I don't think whereas I would imagine a new build would be 100% ready to run on a.c.

 

[Mikey C]

Bear in mind both classes were delivered fully capable of dual voltage conversion.
By the way, earlier suggestions that they be replaced for 'fleet commonality' purposes in the next franchise are possibly missing the point that they are already effectively a common fleet for maintenance, which consists of 172 units or 733 vehicles. The Aventra fleet in comparison will be a similar size at 750 vehicles, but based and maintained separately at the London end of the network. Why is any commonality needed?
It is only the 442s that will be a relatively small fleet.

The 444s and 450s will happily continue to run on 3rd rail for the rest of their life

With the OHLE programme somewhat disintegrating, their successors will probably be running on 3rd rail as well...