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Replica totems...becoming too good ?

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Graham H

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Any thoughts on replica totems. There is a company on ebay producing really authentic looking ones complete with rust spots and dings as found on genuine ex BR ones. I am not in any way knocking the company concerned as they are correctly advertised as replica and to be honest look brilliant if after one from your home town or whatever and of course the price genuinely reflects that they are not original.
What does concern me though is replicas arent generally identified as such anywhere on them so could find their way onto the second hand market. I would hope reputable auction houses will spot a replica but what about subsequent private sales on ebay, antique shops etc,
Should a replica morally have the word 'replica' stamped on them ? I have the original sales receipts for most of mine but the criminally minded could easily buy a replica and sell it along with the original receipt for a genuine one....perhaps I am getting too cynical in my old age.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Should a replica morally have the word 'replica' stamped on them ?
Similar issue with reproductions/replicas of items such as FA Cup Final match programmes from a 100 years or more ago. Some of the supposedly even older single sheet items are now printed on "distressed" card to give the items that 'authentic' aged look. Doubt either that such items are always over-printed as being 'replicas'.
 

AM9

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Any thoughts on replica totems. There is a company on ebay producing really authentic looking ones complete with rust spots and dings as found on genuine ex BR ones. I am not in any way knocking the company concerned as they are correctly advertised as replica and to be honest look brilliant if after one from your home town or whatever and of course the price genuinely reflects that they are not original.
What does concern me though is replicas arent generally identified as such anywhere on them so could find their way onto the second hand market. I would hope reputable auction houses will spot a replica but what about subsequent private sales on ebay, antique shops etc,
Should a replica morally have the word 'replica' stamped on them ? I have the original sales receipts for most of mine but the criminally minded could easily buy a replica and sell it along with the original receipt for a genuine one....perhaps I am getting too cynical in my old age.
No,- it is the responsibility of the buyer to satisfy themselves of both the integrity of the buyer and the pedigree of the item for sale. If it was an essential item that the buyer needed as opposed to just wanted, there might be a stronger case for indelibly marking the item, but we are discussing railway menorabilia and present day marking would probably impact on the value of the item.
There's also the case of who would mark it, - I doubt the original vendor would be interested in maintaining an everlasting record of the item's movement.
 

Graham H

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No,- it is the responsibility of the buyer to satisfy themselves of both the integrity of the buyer and the pedigree of the item for sale. If it was an essential item that the buyer needed as opposed to just wanted, there might be a stronger case for indelibly marking the item, but we are discussing railway menorabilia and present day marking would probably impact on the value of the item.
There's also the case of who would mark it, - I doubt the original vendor would be interested in maintaining an everlasting record of the item's movement.
I think you missed the point. I am not suggesting we mark our real stuff as genuine, more that items produced and sold as replicas are identified as such. If you want to buy a replica then not a problem as the ones I saw look as good as the real thing and a mark on the back of a totem wouldnt be visible on display. The issue, a few years down the line perhaps, is that they find their way to a second market scenario and thats where problems occur. In fact I would suggest unmarked replicas will have an effect on the value of our genuine ones as people become sceptical in any scenario other than a genuine validated railway auction sale. I do remember seeing a totem with 'replica' embossed on it but to be honest the quality was poor and it wouldnt have passed inspection but the quality of todays offerings made of steel and enamelled are pretty convincing. It is not a legal requirement but morally it would be helpful to the memorabilia market if embossed "replica supplied by xx" and that may actually act as advertising for the original maker ?
 
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Ashley Hill

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Yes replica totems are getting better but thankfully mistakes do make them stand out a bit. The flanges look wrong on those eBay totems also generally only the Southern had white edged flanges (apart from a few black) plus a handful of Scottish and Midland ones and they’re all known. No totem had just Bristol on as both stations carried the suffixes.
As to the distressing why go to that effort,even the backs are distressed. Is it just to make it look old or to deceive? If a person walked into an antique shop and saw one of those Clapham Junction totems for sale could they tell the difference,would the vendor sell it as a replica?
The company that made the Sherringham totems for the NNR was one of the companies that had made totems for BR. To distinguish them as replicas they were made with white enamelled backs. Perhaps that eBay company could note that to remove any doubt.
 

32475

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I believe that replicas should most definitely be identified as such. Genuine totems can fetch anything from a few hundred pounds to around the £10k mark for really scare and sought after rarities. Seasoned collectors generally know exactly what to look for, however with buying off eBay, you are often relying totally on personal judgement, the description of the item and photographs. At least with the reputable railwayana auction houses, all items are scrutinised for authenticity and if you attend the auction you get to look at the weathering and patina.
I agree that some replicas are very good however their manufacturers have got nothing to lose by identifying them.
 

32475

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I’m pretty sure the eBay totem seller in question is the same that sells BR flanged enamel door plates. The first time you see these it’s easy to think they are the real deal until you look at the small print detailed description where it says ‘authentic reproduction’ whatever that means. Surely it’s authentic or it’s a reproduction; it can’t be both. Also the discerning buyer will see that the screw holes are in the wrong place.
I queried the description with the seller about three years ago but I never received a reply and the description hasn’t been changed since. These particular items were a topic of discussion in the Railway Antiques Gazette a couple of years ago.
 

Mcr Warrior

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...it says ‘authentic reproduction’ whatever that means. Surely it’s authentic or it’s a reproduction; it can’t be both...
The term does seem somewhat disingenuous / oxymoronic. :rolleyes:
 

AM9

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I think you missed the point. I am not suggesting we mark our real stuff as genuine, more that items produced and sold as replicas are identified as such. If you want to buy a replica then not a problem as the ones I saw look as good as the real thing and a mark on the back of a totem wouldnt be visible on display. The issue, a few years down the line perhaps, is that they find their way to a second market scenario and thats where problems occur. In fact I would suggest unmarked replicas will have an effect on the value of our genuine ones as people become sceptical in any scenario other than a genuine validated railway auction sale. I do remember seeing a totem with 'replica' embossed on it but to be honest the quality was poor and it wouldnt have passed inspection but the quality of todays offerings made of steel and enamelled are pretty convincing. It is not a legal requirement but morally it would be helpful to the memorabilia market if embossed "replica supplied by xx" and that may actually act as advertising for the original maker ?
I didn't miss the point. If the original vendor has correctly declared items to be replicas, that is sufficient for the purchaser to make a decision on a purchase. If the subsequent vendor doesn't declare it's status, then the purchaser should beware. Even if there is a practice of marking things as replicas, then there's another opportunity for unscrupulous sellers to use whatever confidence that some may have in that to sell their replica wares as genuine. That's why buyers of works of art either become experts at establishing pedigree of items before they commit, or they employ other to do same.
Be careful of what you wish for.
 

Graham H

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I didn't miss the point. If the original vendor has correctly declared items to be replicas, that is sufficient for the purchaser to make a decision on a purchase. If the subsequent vendor doesn't declare it's status, then the purchaser should beware. Even if there is a practice of marking things as replicas, then there's another opportunity for unscrupulous sellers to use whatever confidence that some may have in that to sell their replica wares as genuine. That's why buyers of works of art either become experts at establishing pedigree of items before they commit, or they employ other to do same.
Be careful of what you wish for.
OK but the bit that made we wonder was "but we are discussing railway menorabilia and present day marking would probably impact on the value of the item" which I took to mean you were saying the value of a GENUINE item would be devalued if marked and I wasnt proposing that at all, only that replicas should be marked because as you say unscrupulous sellers could pass them off as genuine or even unwittingly if they appeared in an antique shop. As someone already posted, even the backs of these are well distressed. Of course the initial vendor does allude in the print that these are replica so not an issue, its what happens after that worries me and of course as always its 'buyer beware'. What I am wishing for is replicas are marked clearly as such to avoid unscrupulous sales or if it becomes known that some very good replicas are on the market that may devalue our genuine ones.
 

Ashley Hill

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There has been a lot of genuine totems passing through internet auctions recently with similar minor chipping on them especially from the Bristol area. As has been said,that was the joy of proper auctions where you could physically examine the lots before deciding to bid.
 

Graham H

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Yes replica totems are getting better but thankfully mistakes do make them stand out a bit. The flanges look wrong on those eBay totems also generally only the Southern had white edged flanges (apart from a few black) plus a handful of Scottish and Midland ones and they’re all known. No totem had just Bristol on as both stations carried the suffixes.
As to the distressing why go to that effort,even the backs are distressed. Is it just to make it look old or to deceive? If a person walked into an antique shop and saw one of those Clapham Junction totems for sale could they tell the difference,would the vendor sell it as a replica?
The company that made the Sherringham totems for the NNR was one of the companies that had made totems for BR. To distinguish them as replicas they were made with white enamelled backs. Perhaps that eBay company could note that to remove any doubt.
Presumably Stapleton Road was the other Bristol station as some express services from the south avoided Temple Meads ? Hard to imagine that Bristol was regarded as having two stations. one a huge monument to Brunel and his follow ons and the other a tiny suburban station with basic facilities (if any these days). You bring up another good point, there were exceptions to the general rule, some Southern had black edges and a handful of others had white so never a hard and fast rule. I wonder if a Bristol only one will appear one day with a claim that its a rare find.
 

Ashley Hill

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Presumably Stapleton Road was the other Bristol station as some express services from the south avoided Temple Meads ?
Yes Bristol Stapleton Road with the suffix in the lower portion. All were full flanged whereas those at Bristol Temple Meads were half flanged and quite rare. I understand there are a few Temple Meads totems kicking around that were created by cutting them out from the big roundles.
 

Ianigsy

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minor chipping on them especially from the Bristol area
Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend of mine….

I think there’s been a lot of amateur detective work done in recent years among totem collectors, checking photos to see which stations never had them and where and when a particular station has come up at auction and also where running-in boards are known to be in museums.
 

Ashley Hill

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Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend of mine….

I think there’s been a lot of amateur detective work done in recent years among totem collectors, checking photos to see which stations never had them and where and when a particular station has come up at auction and also where running-in boards are known to be in museums.
A good example is Bridestowe. Totems exist from this location but looking at pictures even immediately prior to closer show no totems appear to have been erected here. Another example is Ingatestone,totems exist but were never erected. Apparently they arrived but were never put up. Detective work throws up all sorts of anomalies.
 

Pinza-C55

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A good example is Bridestowe. Totems exist from this location but looking at pictures even immediately prior to closer show no totems appear to have been erected here. Another example is Ingatestone,totems exist but were never erected. Apparently they arrived but were never put up. Detective work throws up all sorts of anomalies.

Warcop station on the Eden Valley Railway was supposed to have had totems and a well known railwayana dealer discovered them in the goods shed at Appleby East still in their wrapping paper in the late 60s/early70s.
 

Trackman

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I'm on FB page about fake railwayana being sold, or someone querying if something is the real deal.
The number of eBay railwayana fakes is huge.
One cropped up this week (not a totem) think it was sign or something with rust spots or whatever, it looked aged - the buyer had a look at the back and it looked brand new!
 

Ashley Hill

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Will someone buy an “aged” replica,restore it and try and pass it off as a restored original? There are plenty of restored originals about! Caveat Emptor indeed!!!
 

Pinza-C55

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Will someone buy an “aged” replica,restore it and try and pass it off as a restored original? There are plenty of restored originals about! Caveat Emptor indeed!!!
Actual totems are Vitreous enamel, replica totems as far as I know are Stove enamel. It might be possible to pass a replica off to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at but otherwise no.
 

Tester

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Another variation on a theme.....

I bought one from BR(SR) in the late 1960s for 10/- which had never been installed - complete with manufacturer's adhesive tape around it.

It's nicely weathered now!
 

Bessie

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For those interested in totems Dave Brennand has recently published his updated totem book.
British Railways Station Totems: The Complete Guide https://amzn.eu/d/4fok4fN
Does this book only cover British Rail Totems post 1948 or is there a section on Southern target signs? There's no "quick-read" link on Amazon site to have a peak inside to see the chapters.
 

Ashley Hill

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Does this book only cover British Rail Totems post 1948 or is there a section on Southern target signs? There's no "quick-read" link on Amazon site to have a peak inside to see the chapters.
There’s a brief mention of post nationalisation signage like SR targets,LMS hawkseyes and GWR lamp tablets etc but it’s more of overview on a couple of pages. The rest of the book is solely about BR totems. It’s very in-depth and covers manufacture,typeface,rare and unusual and lists of every totem known to have existed for each region and their survival for each station. There’s a lot of photos plus in situ ones. It’s much more comprehensive that Daves earlier book so if you collect totems it’s worth buying.
 

Graham H

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Actual totems are Vitreous enamel, replica totems as far as I know are Stove enamel. It might be possible to pass a replica off to someone who doesn't know what they are looking at but otherwise no.
so for the benefit of the group, how do you tell the difference between the two types of enamel ? I assume the same would apply to any enamel sign, not just totems and while I would be very wary of a totem outside of an auction, a simple 'PRIVATE' sign might be tempting if spotted
 

Pinza-C55

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so for the benefit of the group, how do you tell the difference between the two types of enamel ? I assume the same would apply to any enamel sign, not just totems and while I would be very wary of a totem outside of an auction, a simple 'PRIVATE' sign might be tempting if spotted

Vitreous Enamel is fired at a high temperature and has a glassy texture therefore tends to be shiny when clean. I can't remember if this applies to totems but I used to have a collection of pre grouping enamel doorplates and they always had batch number marked on the back and in the case of doorplates the makers name would be on the front. Vitreous enamel is generally expensive to make.
Stove Enamel is layers of paint substances fired at a lower temperature and thus cheaper to make. It doesn't have the high gloss of Vitreous Enamel and is less durable.
The easiest way to tell is to look at the back of the totem or sign; a genuine one will have wear, cracking and rust around the mounting holes and nearly all will have at least one or two chips even if they have been repaired. If a totem has been painted on the back you would have to ask yourself why that was.
The majority of genuine enamels are in the hands of collectors now so the only way to be sure you are buying the real thing is to buy from a reputable dealer - if you buy from an "online auction site" and it is cheap it will be a fake, if it is genuine it will be overpriced.
There are exceptions so in the 1990s I bought this BR(NE) Grangetown totem for about £60 but it was almost completely repainted because totems at the station were subject to corrosion from the steelworks and sea air plus vandalism so they are all in shocking condition !
Grangetown Totem 2012.jpg
 

dlj83

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How much do enamel signs sell for? A friend of mine bought a London Underground Sign on eBay (around a metre each side) and from one store was offered £100 even though on the website they were selling much smaller signs for £800
 

Pinza-C55

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How much do enamel signs sell for? A friend of mine bought a London Underground Sign on eBay (around a metre each side) and from one store was offered £100 even though on the website they were selling much smaller signs for £800

It depends whether they are genuine or not. The original "roundel" Underground station names are worth a fortune if they are the type in a brass frame so a good name like Kings Cross would be a couple of thousand probably.
 

dlj83

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It depends whether they are genuine or not. The original "roundel" Underground station names are worth a fortune if they are the type in a brass frame so a good name like Kings Cross would be a couple of thousand probably.
I just asked and apparently this is it (taken when it was at the station). (An enamel sign, not in brass)

I've seen it before and it's definitely genuine, I think the store owner just wanted to buy as cheap as possible. What would a reasonable expectation be
 

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Pinza-C55

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I just asked and apparently this is it (taken when it was at the station). (An enamel sign, not in brass)

I've seen it before and it's definitely genuine, I think the store owner just wanted to buy as cheap as possible. What would a reasonable expectation be

I gave up collecting several years ago so I'm no authority but my guess would be £150.
 

Ashley Hill

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How much do enamel signs sell for? A friend of mine bought a London Underground Sign on eBay (around a metre each side) and from one store was offered £100 even though on the website they were selling much smaller signs for £800
Try having a look through the sales results from past railwayana auctions as a rough guide.
 
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