Reported for prosecution by Northern for fraud

[talltim]

I was talking to an ex colleague today and mentioned that her 17 year old daughter had been reported for prosecution by Northern for fraud.
Obviously this is third hand, but from what I gather this is what happened
She lives in Chapeltown and goes to college in Castleford. She has been buying weekly seasons, an adult to Barnsley and a child from Barnsley to Castleford costing just over £30 in total.She has something from the college that gives her dispensation to use a child ticket in West Yorkshire.
A couple of weeks ago she attempted to buy the tickets on the Monday (from what sounds like it would have been the guard on the train) and was told that the correct ticket was a £22 one, when she queried this as she had been paying more she was forcibly told that she was wrong and he was right so she bought it. She mentioned this to my friend and I gather she thought it was strange and emailed Northern on the Monday evening. I get the impression it was a child season for the whole journey
She used the ticket without any guards questioning it until Thursday when an obviously more on the ball guard noticed and took the ticket from her, attempted to put her off the train and obviously reported her. As she didn't have any money she couldn't by a ticket but a kind fellow passenger paid for her.
Is there any advice I can pass onto my friend? From what I can make out the ticket wasn't valid, but the fact that the guards sold it to her despite her questioning it's correctness should count for something. Also if the email sent on the Monday night would confirm the doubts about the ticket.

 

[najaB]

Is there any advice I can pass onto my friend? From what I can make out the ticket wasn't valid, but the fact that the guards sold it to her despite her questioning it's correctness should count for something. Also if the email sent on the Monday night would confirm the doubts about the ticket.

No doubt others with a bit more experience will be along shortly, but my newbie comment is that it's a bad-news/good-news situation (with disclaimer that I am not a lawyer).

The bad news is that it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket(s) for their journey - no ifs, ands or buts. So Northern would be perfectly within their rights to bring a Byelaws prosecution against the young lady, and she would have little or no defence.

The good news is that in order for a fraud prosecution to be successful, the company's lawyers would have to demonstrate that there was intention to evade paying the correct fare by way of deception. Ignoring the actions of the guard (who could easily deny the conversation as reported), the fact that she (a) has a history of paying the correct fare; and (b) contacted Northern about the situation three days before they detected shows that there was no intention to deceive.

 

[talltim]

I meant to add in my OP that I thought of, but forgot to ask if she had kept her old tickets.

 

[najaB]

I meant to add in my OP that I thought of, but forgot to ask if she had kept her old tickets.

Are you sure there isn't more to the story that you've not been told? Thinking about it some more, it seems odd that Northern would go for the 'difficult' fraud prosecution, rather than an 'easy' Byelaws case.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There is a spectrum of actions which the Railway Company can take, with a prosecution for Fraud being the most severe for the passenger. They have the option to pursue any other action on that spectrum (such as a Railway Byelaw Offence).

There is plenty Case Law to support an accusation of Fraud against a passenger who repeatedly employs the same strategy to travel without paying the full fare due (such as Season Ticket abuse).

The report of the person refusing to sell the 'usual' ticket and insisting on the £22 ticket is going to be difficult to present as persuasive evidence.
The email to the Company may assist, as might it's response.

In terms of procedure, it is almost definite that Northern's Prosecutor would not progress a Fraud without a further Witness Statement and an Interview, with legal representation. Both parties should leave that interview with a clear understanding of the Evidence, and hopefully, with a clear understanding of the options which the Company are intending to pursue, if any.

I suggest taking steps to hold that interview sooner rather than later, and if any additional evidence can be found (such as the identity of the ticket seller or the precise date and time and location of the transaction and agreement over exactly what was said) then the passenger will maximise the prospects of a properly informed outcome - whatever that might be.

 

[Clip]

Was it the Student Plus Metro card she was using?

I think Northern are in the right here as you say she buys a ticket to Barnsley then uses her card onwards but from the map HERE Barnsley is not in the zonal area of validity so she has, from what I can see, been using the wrong tickets for her Journey. Looks like Darton would be the first point where the card could be used from.

 

[bb21]

That is my concern too. Is there anything to authorise her to pay child rate from Barnsley?

 

[najaB]

Was it the Student Plus Metro card she was using?

I think Northern are in the right here as you say she buys a ticket to Barnsley then uses her card onwards but from the map HERE Barnsley is not in the zonal area of validity so she has, from what I can see, been using the wrong tickets for her Journey. Looks like Darton would be the first point where the card could be used from.

They are in the right for a Byelaws prosecution, but if the facts are as reported (she has a history of buying the correct ticket, and emailed Northern asking if the £22 ticket was correct) then a fraud case will be difficult to make 'stick'.

 

[jon0844]

The email could prove incredibly valuable here, and instantly disprove any deliberate intent.

Even if a mistake had been made on tickets purchased previously, it would be silly to take further action in my opinion (which is just that).

Northern would be better off dropping any action, provide clarification on what tickets need to be purchased from now on, and leave it at that.

 

[talltim]

Was it the Student Plus Metro card she was using?

I think Northern are in the right here as you say she buys a ticket to Barnsley then uses her card onwards but from the map HERE Barnsley is not in the zonal area of validity so she has, from what I can see, been using the wrong tickets for her Journey. Looks like Darton would be the first point where the card could be used from.

Apologies, now I think about it I think she did a actually say Darton rather than Barnsley, I will check. Trouble is that we were talking at another colleague's leaving lunch and I didn't want to cross question her too much.

I will also double check what the student discount was.

Basically you have all said what I was thinking, there's not really a case for the fraud charge.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In West Yorkshire young people aged 16-18 in full time education are entitled to a Scholar's Photocard, which allows them to travel for the child rate on buses and trains. I had one when I was in sixth form in Bradford and some guards were very dubious about it.

http://www.wymetro.com/TicketsAndPasses/YoungPeople/ScholarsPhotoCard/

This is only valid in West Yorkshire, though, so the first station she could use it from is Darton. More crucially, it is only available to scholars who live in West Yorkshire, so the fact that she lives in Sheffield could be a problem if she's using that Photocard.

 

[BurtonM]

Scholar's passes are a big old can of worms.
My TfGM one did the same thing, half price bus and train fare, except TfGM don't actually permit you to buy child season tickets with it as they can't be issued with a LACON discount code. Except it doesn't tell you this anywhere. Not TfGM's website, tickets, or the pass itself. Annoying, as it meant I had to queue up for a ticket every day and the bus was cheaper, at full adult fare too.
Everyone I asked that worked for Northern would have a go at using the pass to discount a season, often they'd have a look through the options on their machine, look a little puzzled then just issue a 'child' season. TPE's temporary morning revenue staff did the same. Revenue staff and conductors all accepted it and I never once was disputed. It was a few months before someone picked up on it (the full time ticket office staff at Stalybridge), and told me it was invalid with seasons, at which point I lost my rag with the pass (a lot of bus drivers didn't recognise/misinterpreted it too) and just abandoned it.

 

[fork]

I had one when I was in sixth form in Bradford and some guards were very dubious about it.

It was a few months before someone picked up on it (the full time ticket office staff at Stalybridge), and told me it was invalid with seasons, at which point I lost my rag with the pass (a lot of bus drivers didn't recognise/misinterpreted it too) and just abandoned it.

Local PTE discounts seem to be a major training/briefing issue for many train companies. In my area, knowledge by rail staff of the recently-introduced South Yorkshire GetAbout+ ticket (basically a one-day Travelmaster available to under-18s) has been appalling.