Reported for prosecution with a valid ticket

[RailwayDan]

The journey I made today was East Midlands Parkway to London St Pancras.

My ticket type was the return half of an Off Peak Return London Terminals to Stalybridge ticket with a YP Railcard costing £51.00. The ticket was in date and travel was on a Sunday so the peak restrictions were observed.

The route stated on the ticket was VIA Manchester.

According to trainscanbecheaper.info this ticket is valid on maps MS+MM (via Manchester, Sheffield and the Midland Mainline) and break of journey is permitted. I had not used the ticket previously and was starting short at East Midlands Parkway.

So, on the train I was told categorically it was not valid and I would be reported for prosecution. The guard took my name and address and said I would receive a letter.

So my first question is am I in the wrong here? Was my routing valid?

What should I expect to happen next? I tried to explain the routing to the guard and offered to show him the maps on my laptop (which I had out on the table) but he said that 'the routing guide didn't apply to my ticket as I was off route'(?) not sure about that one.

Thanks.

 

[BrownE]

According to trainscanbecheaper.info...valid on maps MS+MM (via Manchester...) and break of journey is permitted.

...on the train I was told ... I would be reported for prosecution. The guard took my name and address and said I would receive a letter.

...am I in the wrong here? Was my routing valid?

Yep, you seem to be correct. MS+MM is a mapped route between London Group and Stalybridge. Do always remember to check the routings trainscanbecheaper gives you anyway!

What should I expect to happen next?

In a perfect world, EMT won't do anything. I suspect you will however get a letter demanding some money. Come back here when you do - I'm sure some of the fares team would be happy to help you.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

I would concur that MS+MM allows travel via Manchester and Sheffield. Direct services from Sheffield to London call at EMP and I can find no easements that would prohibit this.

However NRE does not appear to allow it on a single ticket. If I say "via Sheffield" then the route offered is via Doncaster, passing through Sheffield, but not changing there.

If I try other 'via' stations on the direct route between Sheffield and London (EMP, Derby, Leicester, Loughborough, Luton), then NRE indicates that 2 tickets are required.

So this would appear to be one of those situations where NRE is using a different rule book to that published. I would imagine you will get a letter requesting your input. You should then reply with the MS+MM defence and, TOC willing, that will be the end of it.

Please can others check my calculations?

 

[bb21]

My first reaction upon seeing this thread is "haahaa". Noting your destination and the TOC travelled on, my reaction was that your intended route was Sheffield and Manchester. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this route. If EMT are taking people to court for something like this then I am not surprised they are in big trouble money-wise.

Even if you were off-route according to them, then the correct course of action would have been to charge you a change of route excess to the Route Via Doncaster fare, not prosecution. Prosecution only becomes a consideration should you refuse to do so.

If I were in your situation, I would let them take me to court, and then see them comprehensively defeated with associated compensation. If I were you, I would not give them a chance to back out by showing them how wrong they were before the matter reaches court.

This is the sort of things that really make my blood boil.

Did you write down the guard's name? Some EMT mainline guards are so inept you won't believe it until you see it. (Once I was told by a guard she did not know what a restriction code is.)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Okay...Working through the eNRG, Stalybridge and London are both Routeing Points, so we don't need to do a fares check.

For reference, there are no "Any Permitted" tickets, just "via Manchester" (priced by Virgin) and "via Doncaster" (priced by East Coast).

Past enquiries tell us that, for a specifically routed fare, we check permitted routes from the origin to the intermediate point and then on from there to the destination.

In this case, we're concerned about the permitted routes from Manchester - London. One of those, of course, is the erstwhile PS+MM (i.e. the Hope Valley and thence to St Pancras via Sheffield).

As stated upthread, MS+MM quite clearly also gives a valid route from Stalybridge - Manchester - Sheffield - St Pancras, and there's no BoJ restriction on the return porition of the ticket.

There are definitely no negative "easements" in the version of the eNRG on the ATOC site, but that isn't to say there aren't in the fares database of course... *checks*

And, sure enough, route 00312 (via Manchester) is coded not to permit routes via Derby, Swindon(!), Banbury or Doncaster, though as that's not advertised to the public, it's enforceability is, at best, questionable.

Personally, I would have no qualms whatsoever as to accepting such a ticket for travel into STP, as it's a perfectly reasonable route.

 

[John @ home]

Past enquiries tell us that, for a specifically routed fare, we check permitted routes from the origin to the intermediate point and then on from there to the destination.

No. Where a fare is routed via a specific intermediate point, and that intermediate point does not lie on a permitted route between origin and destination, then ATOC have advised us that we should examine permitted routes from the origin to the intermediate point and those from the intermediate point to the destination.

That is not the position with a Stalybridge to London Terminals journey. Therefore we're not "concerned about the permitted routes from Manchester - London". Permitted Stalybridge to London Terminals map combinations in the Permitted Route Identifier are CM+GC, GM+MA, GM+NL+ER, GM+PS+ER, MA, MR+MA, MR+MS+MM, MR+MS+MM+BP+ER, MR+MS+SH+ER, MR+NL+ER, MR+PS+ER, MS+MM, MS+MM+BP+ER, MS+SH+ER, WK+ER and WY+ER.

Of these, map combination MS+MM allows Stalybridge - Manchester - Chinley - Sheffield - Chesterfield - East Midlands Parkway - Loughborough - Leicester - Bedford - London St Pancras.

Therefore the ticket used by the OP was valid for the journey made. I agree that the OP should return here for advice when a letter from EMT is received.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

And, sure enough, route 00312 (via Manchester) is coded not to permit routes via Derby, Swindon(!), Banbury or Doncaster, though as that's not advertised to the public, it's enforceability is, at best, questionable.

.

Can I ask how one checks this information?

 

[yorkie]

Can I ask how one checks this information?

At a guess, RJIS?

 

[sheff1]

I tried to explain the routing to the guard and offered to show him the maps on my laptop (which I had out on the table) but he said that 'the routing guide didn't apply to my ticket as I was off route'(?)

This is the sort of complete drivel that some EMT staff regularly come out with in attempts to justify some 'rule' they have just made up.

Unfortunately these people are so (a) unintelligent & (b) certain that they are correct, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion with them.

As others have said, wait and see what (if anything) you get from EMT and then come back for further advice.

Some EMT mainline guards are so inept you won't believe it until you see it.

I have seen it and I believe it !! What I really can't understand is how some of them remain employed checking/selling tickets.

 

[CyrusWuff]

(Non-public routeing restrictions)

Can I ask how one checks this information?

Trawling through the "Routes" data (the .RTE file in the fares download), looking for "L" records with the relevant numeric route code.

This will give you one or more entries containing the NLC and CRS code for each (allegedly) relevant location followed by a letter E if the location is excluded from that route or an I if it's included.

 

[tom1649]

Why are there so many problems with main line guards? Is it a legacy thing from MML days? The local services guards seem (generally) much more knowledgeable from experience.

 

[talltim]

And, sure enough, route 00312 (via Manchester) is coded not to permit routes via Derby, Swindon(!), Banbury or Doncaster, though as that's not advertised to the public, it's enforceability is, at best, questionable.

And as the OP is starting short at East Midlands Parkway, they haven't even been via Derby!
Even if they were making the full trip, there's ways to come the down the MML avoiding Derby

 

[RJ]

At a guess, RJIS?

I've got it in the ticket office, sometimes it does and other times it doesn't. For example, it tells me that the London Group is excluded from tickets routed Via Barnham, but it won't say which stations are excluded from tickets routed Tilbry/Gravesnd.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The journey I made today was East Midlands Parkway to London St Pancras.

My ticket type was the return half of an Off Peak Return London Terminals to Stalybridge ticket with a YP Railcard costing £51.00. The ticket was in date and travel was on a Sunday so the peak restrictions were observed.

The route stated on the ticket was VIA Manchester.

According to trainscanbecheaper.info this ticket is valid on maps MS+MM (via Manchester, Sheffield and the Midland Mainline) and break of journey is permitted. I had not used the ticket previously and was starting short at East Midlands Parkway.

So, on the train I was told categorically it was not valid and I would be reported for prosecution. The guard took my name and address and said I would receive a letter.

So my first question is am I in the wrong here? Was my routing valid?

What should I expect to happen next? I tried to explain the routing to the guard and offered to show him the maps on my laptop (which I had out on the table) but he said that 'the routing guide didn't apply to my ticket as I was off route'(?) not sure about that one.

Thanks.

Easier said than done I know but don't worry - nothing whatsoever is going to come of this.

 

[AndyW33]

And as the OP is starting short at East Midlands Parkway, they haven't even been via Derby!
Even if they were making the full trip, there's ways to come the down the MML avoiding Derby

Especially at the moment when with the Nottingham blockade there is an hourly service between Manchester and East Midlands Parkway via the Erewash Valley operated by, yes, East Midlands Trains. (Diverted Liverpool-Norwich)
Travelled on one on Saturday, definitely stopped at Alfreton for bus connection to Nottingham, went past Toton and nowhere near Derby. This might not work in the other direction as at least some of the services pass through Derby.

 

[MichaelAMW]

As an added thought, if EMT have attempted to remove this as a permitted route, with the exclusion of Derby as others have explained, isn't this going squarely against one of the RG's principles, that long-standing routes that had been accepted as "reasonable routes" would be preserved? I thought there was supposed to be a consultation...

 

[RJ]

As an added thought, if EMT have attempted to remove this as a permitted route, with the exclusion of Derby as others have explained, isn't this going squarely against one of the RG's principles, that long-standing routes that had been accepted as "reasonable routes" would be preserved? I thought there was supposed to be a consultation...

Booking engine hacks are superfluous where it comes to establishing the validity of a ticket. All information passengers need to establish the routing validity of a ticket is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, National Rail Timetable and National Routeing Guide.

 

[bb21]

Booking engine hacks are superfluous where it comes to establishing the validity of a ticket. All information passengers need to establish the routing validity of a ticket is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, National Rail Timetable and National Routeing Guide.

That is of course correct, however I think MichaelAMW also has a very good point. Your average passenger will not know how to interpret the Routeing Guide, hence many will rely on the information they obtain from the ticketing software as being accurate. If they are deliberately disallowing permitted routes, then there is certainly a case for complaint.

How far the complaint will get is another question.

 

[RJ]

Why are there so many problems with main line guards? Is it a legacy thing from MML days? The local services guards seem (generally) much more knowledgeable from experience.

It's an attitude problem - there are certainly a few who believe they are the elite because they work on express trains. With this comes an insurmountable level of arrogance and the propensity to dismiss what anybody else says, regardless of whether they are correct or not.

I no longer tolerate any level of this rubbish from them, but I am aggrieved to see that they're treating other customers with the same disregard. If East Midlands Trains keep this up then I can see their staff becoming the butt of jokes before long!

 

[RailwayDan]

Thanks everyone for the excellent replies. I have also received some very helpful messages which is appreciated.

Whilst I can see the negative easement above, I find it very hard to believe that I needed to heed to that, (as has been pointed out) it is not in the public domain.

I shall wait and see as to what happens, but I am fairly confident now that it will resolve itself. Of course, should this not be the case I will update the thread with any correspondence received. Having read of RJ's exploits, I can sympathise with what he has had to go through with EMT especially.

 

[bb21]

I have seen it and I believe it !! What I really can't understand is how some of them remain employed checking/selling tickets.

I'm sticking my neck out for saying this, but I remain highly suspicious that some of them are really qualified to do revenue duties.

Don't get me wrong, I have observed some very knowledgable guards on mainline services, but they appear to be a significant minority.

 

[SickyNicky]

If they are deliberately disallowing permitted routes, then there is certainly a case for complaint.

But they've been doing this for some time now. The electronic routeing guide is completely different to the public routeing guide.

For those interested, TrainsCanBeCheaper has an option "Analyse all possible stations on permitted routes" which will tell you which stations are valid on the public routeing guide and which have been lost (or added) in the electronic routeing guide. It doesn't do easements and is only for Any Permitted tickets at the moment, but it gives you an idea of the scale of difference between what booking engines will allow and what the routeing guide says is allowed.

 

[RJ]

I'm actually doing some work today - might as well start spending my 6 rest days a week a bit more productively!

Looking at RJIS and ticking the "Use Routeing Guide" button in the journey planner, no negative easements are shown and the Via Manchester fare is shown as valid to travel via Sheffield and Derby.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I love the line "routeing guide doesn't apply because you're off route". Off route because of the routeing guide presumably....

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Muzer]

Booking engine hacks are superfluous where it comes to establishing the validity of a ticket. All information passengers need to establish the routing validity of a ticket is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, National Rail Timetable and National Routeing Guide.

...and the fares system, as well as a map so you know whether or not you're doubling back.

 

[alcockell]

How the hell is the average passenger supposed to know? They buy a ticket in good faith - then fund themselves RPd or prosecuted...

Or are we to stick slavishly to an itinerary in all cases?

 

[reb0118]

.........then fund themselves........

Could they not get legal aid, or is that not available for railway offences?

 

[Mojo]

Or are we to stick slavishly to an itinerary in all cases?

Last time I followed an itinerary issued by the website of the Toc I was travelling on, I was charged an excess fare by Southeastern, despite also being on a valid route.