Repositioning Frome to the mainline proper - any merit in it?

[Gathursty]

Frome station is on a single line loop just off the Westbury - Taunton line. IIRC it has a wooden roof shed which is quite rare on the network.

What benefits are there of having Frome on the loop?
Is it worthwhile moving Frome on to the actual mainline a couple of 100 metres away (near ASDA)?

 

[Quakkerillo]

It's closer to town, so people won't have to walk too much to get there. The station can be used as an extra passing loop on the longish Westbury - Castle Cary stretch, so there's more flexibility to pass without disrupting timetables too much in case of disruption. And the loop itself will remain anyway for the Whatley Quarry, because potential shunting moves in case the train to/from the Quarry has to go via Castle Cary, so why not have the station there too? It does slow down services a bit, but most of them are stopping services. Also for the terminating/starting services, these now don't block the mainline (about 9 per day).

 

[pdeaves]

I think Quakkerillo has it about right. A station on the 'main' line would just cause timetabling and performance issues.

 

[Gathursty]

Thanks. I was reading about Forres on the Aberdeen-Inverness line and it got me thinking about Frome which has some similarities however Forres is more ironing out a kink on the line.

 

[Ginaro]

The works at Forres also removed a level crossing to the east of the station.

 

[MarkyT]

Frome station is on a single line loop just off the Westbury - Taunton line. IIRC it has a wooden roof shed which is quite rare on the network.

What benefits are there of having Frome on the loop?
Is it worthwhile moving Frome on to the actual mainline a couple of 100 metres away (near ASDA)?

I suppose the existing station is already 'edge of town', but it is an established site and is about a half mile closer to much of the town than the site proposed, so a shorter journey on foot or bike for many in the town. Separate platforms for each direction would certainly be a feature of the new site, but works for a separate road access with parking might be quite difficult and extensive, complicated by the proximity of the cemetery and superstore. Perhaps some expansion of the superstore parking might be negotiated for rail users, a partial double decking say, with shared road access. A second platform might be reinstated fairly easily at the existing site however, and finding space nearby for additional car parking looks plausible if required by acquiring more of the small commercial and industrial plots in Station Approach. Moving the station could save one main line junction at Blatchbridge but would then remove the overtaking opportunity the 'offline loop' configuration provides. Clink Road Junction would have to remain for the Whatley stone trains clearly.

 

[Starmill]

I have often thought that other locations might have benefited from an additional overtaking oppourtunity and a station closer to the town!

 

[70014IronDuke]

... The station can be used as an extra passing loop on the longish Westbury - Castle Cary stretch, so there's more flexibility to pass without disrupting timetables too much in case of disruption. And the loop itself will remain anyway for the Whatley Quarry, because potential shunting moves in case the train to/from the Quarry has to go via Castle Cary, so why not have the station there too? It does slow down services a bit, but most of them are stopping services. Also for the terminating/starting services, these now don't block the mainline (about 9 per day).

Well, if you built a new station, would there be enough space for a bay to accommodate terminators? And, and a new station with platforms on the up and down would surely remove two conflicting moves across the up when down trains stop at Frome, wouldn't it?
But unless Frome trebles in size or some such, and demands a better service, I suspect GWR & NR have far more important things to occupy their time. If it ain't broke, etc.
Also, isn't Frome station a listed building? Would that mean that even if NR stopped using it, they'd be responsible for its maintenance?

 

[HowardGWR]

Also, isn't Frome station a listed building? Would that mean that even if NR stopped using it, they'd be responsible for its maintenance?

Not if you sold it to someone else you wouldn't. More importantly, are we not forgetting that there are moves to reopen Radstock to Frome? Then it becomes both a terminus and a junction.

 

[randyrippley]

what will you do with the existing station? As far as I can remember its a listed building (including the overall wooden canopy). You can't simply abandon it and walk away

 

[Western Lord]

But unless Frome trebles in size or some such, and demands a better service, I suspect GWR & NR have far more important things to occupy their time. If it ain't broke, etc.

The population of Frome is 26,000. It must surely have the worst service for a town of its size on a mainline to London. Frome is bigger than, e.g., Retford and Market Harborough and about the same size as Newark. Imagine the outcry if those places had as bad a service to London.

 

[takno]

The population of Frome is 26,000. It must surely have the worst service for a town of its size on a mainline to London. Frome is bigger than, e.g., Retford and Market Harborough and about the same size as Newark. Imagine the outcry if those places had as bad a service to London.

It's not on a mainline to London. It's on a passing loop off a fairly fast secondary route to a sparsely-populated area of the country. If the ECML only went to Hull they wouldn't be running enough fast trains on that to stop any Retford either.

 

[Quakkerillo]

The population of Frome is 26,000. It must surely have the worst service for a town of its size on a mainline to London. Frome is bigger than, e.g., Retford and Market Harborough and about the same size as Newark. Imagine the outcry if those places had as bad a service to London.

Retford also serves people from Gainsborough and the wider worksop area, while Newark serves Lincoln. Frome has a smaller catchment area. For market Harborough, that has no local services like Frome.

 

[telstarbox]

How many people in Frome need to travel to London every day?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The population of Frome is 26,000. It must surely have the worst service for a town of its size on a mainline to London. Frome is bigger than, e.g., Retford and Market Harborough and about the same size as Newark. Imagine the outcry if those places had as bad a service to London.

It's just an accident of history. Frome's station for London is Westbury. And, in one sense, it's not on a main line. Mkt Harborough is much closer to London, and was, at one time anyway, a station with a very high proportion of First class season ticket holders.

EDIT And look just 14 miles away you had Corby, which until a decade ago had no service whatsoever. Frome should count itself lucky!

 

[Western Lord]

It's not on a mainline to London. It's on a passing loop off a fairly fast secondary route to a sparsely-populated area of the country. If the ECML only went to Hull they wouldn't be running enough fast trains on that to stop any Retford either.

I am sure that the citizens of Exeter and Plymouth are interested to know that they are not served by a main line, but only a secondary line. What rubbish. Frome is as much on the main line as Westbury and is the third largest town between Reading and Exeter.

 

[Western Lord]

How many people in Frome need to travel to London every day?

How many people in small towns between Salisbury and Exeter need to travel to London every day?

 

[NSEFAN]

How many people in small towns between Salisbury and Exeter need to travel to London every day?

That's hardly comparable. Waterloo-Exeter is a secondary service with commuter traffic towards the London end, because it's operationally convenient to maintain as a through service to London since the stock and timetable are designed around this. Passengers from Exeter to London will usually use the service via Taunton as this is quicker. Having a direct train to London every hour at the intermediate stops on the West of England line is in some ways a happy side effect.

In the case of Frome, the local railhead to London in the area is Westbury (which is nearby and in fact has some of the express services bypassing it because of the tradeoff between local demand and journey times). Stopping every express at Frome as well as Westbury would inconvenience more people than it serves.

 

[yorksrob]

Frome is handy for railtours to stop off at whilst scheduled services go by.

 

[Starmill]

Frome is pretty lucky to have any London services at all. Trowbridge and Bradford-on-Avon have just one direct fast serice to London and none back, plus three very slow services to London Waterloo.

 

[Bald Rick]

The population of Frome is 26,000. It must surely have the worst service for a town of its size on a mainline to London. Frome is bigger than, e.g., Retford and Market Harborough and about the same size as Newark. Imagine the outcry if those places had as bad a service to London.

I'm sure the good folk of Congleton, Yate/Chipping Sodbury and Rotherham might have something to say in the matter.

 

[Western Lord]

That's hardly comparable. Waterloo-Exeter is a secondary service with commuter traffic towards the London end, because it's operationally convenient to maintain as a through service to London since the stock and timetable are designed around this. Passengers from Exeter to London will usually use the service via Taunton as this is quicker. Having a direct train to London every hour at the intermediate stops on the West of England line is in some ways a happy side effect.

In the case of Frome, the local railhead to London in the area is Westbury (which is nearby and in fact has some of the express services bypassing it because of the tradeoff between local demand and journey times). Stopping every express at Frome as well as Westbury would inconvenience more people than it serves.

Ironic that the downgrading of the Waterloo-Exeter service resulted in a better service for small towns between Salisbury and Exeter, while concentration of expresses on the GW route resulted in similar sized, or bigger, towns being (literally) bypassed, or having their stations closed entirely (Wellington, Somerton).
I don't know why there seem to be so many Frome haters on here. What's wrong with suggesting a better service for a decent sized town? Nobody is suggesting that every express should call. As for Westbury being Frome's railhead, if that were an acceptable situation, why not close Frome station altogether? How many places are there where the inhabitants of a larger town have to travel to a smaller town several miles away to get a train on a line that passes their town?
If Paddington-Exeter had been provided with a semi fast service akin to Waterloo-Exeter the intermediate stations could have a better service (including some which could be reopened) and West of England expresses could generally run non stop from Reading to Taunton.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... Frome is as much on the main line as Westbury ....

Cough! Splutter, spills coffee over keyboard.

Ironic that the downgrading of the Waterloo-Exeter service resulted in a better service for small towns between Salisbury and Exeter, ...

That's because the LSWR route has these stops as its core raison d'etre. After significant efforts were made to close it from Sherborne, somebody realised that by running a regular service, even with lumbering, underpowered Cl 33s + Mk 1s - you could actually attract passengers without going at 125 mph.

... while concentration of expresses on the GW route resulted in similar sized, or bigger, towns being (literally) bypassed, ...

There you go! Hoisted aloft on one's own petard! Not on the main line then, is it?

I don't know why there seem to be so many Frome haters on here. ....

Someone shouted rude words at me once in Frome. That was 35 years ago, but I've never forgiven them for the trauma. I was very impressionable then.
(only joking)

... What's wrong with suggesting a better service for a decent sized town?

Nowt. I would love to see Frome have a better service. If nothing else other than more trains via Melksham to Swindon. And Weymoth. And even to Yeovil Junction.

But the powers at be back in 1962 decided the Hants and Berks was all about whizzing folks from PAD to Exeter and Plymouth and beyond. As a result, they didn't really want to be bothered with stopping their super expensive, fast, heavy trains at biggish villages like Frome.
Anyway, it's got its own Sunday service to Waterloo now - you should be rejoicing over small mercies

As for Westbury being Frome's railhead, if that were an acceptable situation, why not close Frome station altogether?

Shhhh! No need to give people ideas. Even fully paid-up members of the Frome Haters International wouldn't go THAT far.

... How many places are there where the inhabitants of a larger town have to travel to a smaller town several miles away to get a train on a line that passes their town?

Dunno. You could always start a [Trivia] thread on the subject?

If Paddington-Exeter had been provided with a semi fast service akin to Waterloo-Exeter the intermediate stations could have a better service (including some which could be reopened) and West of England expresses could generally run non stop from Reading to Taunton.

Yeah. But even the semi-fasts might miss out Frome, because, er .. it's not on the main line. Time penalty, conflicting movements etc.

Frome - forever doomed to live in the shadow of Westbury

 

[HowardGWR]

But this thread isn't about how many stops London trains make at Frome. See OP posting.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But this thread isn't about how many stops London trains make at Frome. See OP posting.

Ooops. Sorry, sir - but it wasn't us what started it! It was the posh boy in the long trousers - Lord! .

 

[NSEFAN]

Ironic that the downgrading of the Waterloo-Exeter service resulted in a better service for small towns between Salisbury and Exeter, while concentration of expresses on the GW route resulted in similar sized, or bigger, towns being (literally) bypassed, or having their stations closed entirely (Wellington, Somerton).
I don't know why there seem to be so many Frome haters on here. What's wrong with suggesting a better service for a decent sized town? Nobody is suggesting that every express should call. As for Westbury being Frome's railhead, if that were an acceptable situation, why not close Frome station altogether? How many places are there where the inhabitants of a larger town have to travel to a smaller town several miles away to get a train on a line that passes their town?
If Paddington-Exeter had been provided with a semi fast service akin to Waterloo-Exeter the intermediate stations could have a better service (including some which could be reopened) and West of England expresses could generally run non stop from Reading to Taunton.

Exactly: serving Frome with more mainline services slows them down, so a compromise has to be met. There's no need to close the station, but I think it could be better served with more frequent connecting trains to Westbury (so passengers have better connections to both London-Exeter and Bristol-Southampton services). For the sake of argument, if more Exeter-London trains were being introduced, then it'd make sense for some of these to call at Frome during the day because the detriment to the wider service would be less pronounced. As it stands, it's largely pointless to call any more express services at Frome (the current ones have a rational purpose as long-distance commuter trains).

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You could have a station on the mainline, but you'll need to build not only a new station but some quite long passing or platform loops, so that you can stop a train there and then let a fast through without delaying it.

So what's a couple of platforms, footbridge, lifts? Bidding starts at £10m, then you can add another £30m or so for the loops, pointswork & signalling work that it entails. Better dig deep into those pockets.

 

[70014IronDuke]

You could have a station on the mainline, but you'll need to build not only a new station but some quite long passing or platform loops, so that you can stop a train there and then let a fast through without delaying it.

So what's a couple of platforms, footbridge, lifts? Bidding starts at £10m, then you can add another £30m or so for the loops, pointswork & signalling work that it entails. Better dig deep into those pockets.

Indeed. And even if the loops were not needed (as they current loop could still, surely, be utlised), it would still cost millions. And for what?
Let's assume we are in never-never land, and a fairy-Godmother in govt could stump up the capital cost of a new station and any needed trackwork. So what? The fact is that - lacking a standardised semi-fast service worth the name on the line - a new station would in many ways make the problem worse. The OP and Western Lord should consider what happened to Gloucester - a CITY far bigger than Frome which was essentially denuded of its Inter-City status in 1975 and has never really got it back. OK, it has an hourly XC Cardiff - Nottingham, but to do anything else, passengers have to change at Cheltenham or New Street. Or catch the local to Bristol.

I can accept that Fromites may rue their lot, but it would be far better to stop a few more trains at Westbury, which is a far more important node for the area, and serve Frome from there. It's a compromise, sure, but with all the demands on capital and constraints on operating, it would serve a far larger travelling public more effectively than tieing up money and resources on building a new station on the avoider at Frome.

 

[HowardGWR]

Is it possible for the Radstock line, if rebuilt, to reach the present station, or is the new housing now making that impossible. Seems like a very shortsighted development otherwise. A halte on that line at the top of the high street looks as though it would have been convenient for pax from Radstock.

 

[JonnyB]

Is it possible for the Radstock line, if rebuilt, to reach the present station, or is the new housing now making that impossible. Seems like a very shortsighted development otherwise. A halte on that line at the top of the high street looks as though it would have been convenient for pax from Radstock.

It would no longer be possible to rebuild the curve which connected the Radstock line directly into Frome station, because as you rightly say, there is a new housing development in the way Trains from the Radstock direction would have to reverse at Frome North to reach the station.