Repositioning Frome to the mainline proper - any merit in it?

[Parallel]

Frome is pretty lucky to have any London services at all. Trowbridge and Bradford-on-Avon have just one direct fast serice to London and none back, plus three very slow services to London Waterloo.

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On a train a while back, I was sat at a table with two members of GWR staff who I assume were from one of the offices at Swindon. I overheard them talking about the possibility of re-opening the freight line towards Radstock for passenger trains, extending from where the freight line currently ends to Radstock but have "another operator" run some of the services. *coughSWTtoLondoncough* with a new station on this line, that would also be a lot closer to the town centre. So you'd have two stations in Frome. One for trains to/from Weymouth, Castle Cary, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath & Bristol, and the other for trains to/from Radstock extending elsewhere.

To be honest, the whole loop could do with being re-doubled. A few more London/Devon/Cornwall trains could do with making a stop too. This is why we need a new semi-fast or stopping service on the line between Reading/Newbury and Taunton/Exeter. The potential for growth in terms of more local passengers and new/reopened stations here, must be the one of the largest on the GWR network.

 

[MarkyT]

--
On a train a while back, I was sat at a table with two members of GWR staff who I assume were from one of the offices at Swindon. I overheard them talking about the possibility of re-opening the freight line towards Radstock for passenger trains, extending from where the freight line currently ends to Radstock but have "another operator" run some of the services. *coughSWTtoLondoncough* with a new station on this line, that would also be a lot closer to the town centre. So you'd have two stations in Frome. One for trains to/from Weymouth, Castle Cary, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath & Bristol, and the other for trains to/from Radstock extending elsewhere.

There was a cattle dock platform on a siding next to the running line near North Parade bridge. That served the old cattle market which is now a large town car park. The North Somerset Railway wants to estabish a station there.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/106020434#zoom=5&lat=4912&lon=15511&layers=BT

 

[takno]

Indeed. And even if the loops were not needed (as they current loop could still, surely, be utlised), it would still cost millions. And for what?
Let's assume we are in never-never land, and a fairy-Godmother in govt could stump up the capital cost of a new station and any needed trackwork. So what? The fact is that - lacking a standardised semi-fast service worth the name on the line - a new station would in many ways make the problem worse. The OP and Western Lord should consider what happened to Gloucester - a CITY far bigger than Frome which was essentially denuded of its Inter-City status in 1975 and has never really got it back. OK, it has an hourly XC Cardiff - Nottingham, but to do anything else, passengers have to change at Cheltenham or New Street. Or catch the local to Bristol.

Worcester is similarly placed a couple of miles off the main-ish line, and as a result might (and might not) be lucky enough to get the Cardiff-Nottinghams stopping somewhere outside the city with a poor connection into the centre. They do have the Cotswold Line trains, but they're really just Intercity trains which carry on as prolonged rural stoppers past Oxford.

 

[HowardGWR]

There was a cattle dock platform on a siding next to the running line near North Parade bridge. That served the old cattle market which is now a large town car park. The North Somerset Railway wants to estabish a station there.

http://maps.nls.uk/view/106020434#zoom=5&lat=4912&lon=15511&layers=BT

Indeed, that's where I suggested in an earlier post. I did that just by looking at Google Earth. The railway authority and local councillors who have compromised the ability directly to run into Frome station, bear a heavy responsibility IMO. Was this one of the cheapskate sell-offs by Railtrack to earn a quick buck? Do you know who was responsible?

Perhaps the old station could be moved north to the junction with the Radstock line? The present listed station could become a 'clubhouse' facility, or the station could be moved in its entirety. Not impossible these days.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Indeed, that's where I suggested in an earlier post. I did that just by looking at Google Earth. The railway authority and local councillors who have compromised the ability directly to run into Frome station, bear a heavy responsibility IMO. Was this one of the cheapskate sell-offs by Railtrack to earn a quick buck? Do you know who was responsible? ...

Ultimately it is the government, and above them the authority which judged Network RAil's debt as government debt. This means that NR management are under severe pressure to reduce their borrowing.
I have a relative in NR, and she says that management know perfectly well that they are selling off plots of land that a) they may wish were available for rail developments in the future and/or b) that some of these plots are very likely to rise in value substantially in coming years. But the state needs to get the numbers down now, if not yesterday.

Nobody at NR is seeking "quick bucks" as from a strategic point of view they know it does not make sense, but they are having to do this because of orders from above.

Perhaps the old station could be moved north to the junction with the Radstock line? The present listed station could become a 'clubhouse' facility, or the station could be moved in its entirety. Not impossible these days.

Whether it is possible in physical terms, I couldn't say. But in the current climate, my bet is nobody from NR or GWR or SWR is going to spend the time and money even to investigate the possibility of reopening to Radstock, let alone re-siting Frome station unless they see massive, determined support from the local authorities. It would be lovely to have, but there is so much out there needs doing that is a higher priority.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I'd rate redoubling the section from Wilton jn to either Gillingham or Templecombe a much higher priority than that as it would relieve a bottleneck on the SWR WoE line, which would benefit many more people than what should be seen a a glory project like moving a station.

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps the old station could be moved north to the junction with the Radstock line? The present listed station could become a 'clubhouse' facility, or the station could be moved in its entirety. Not impossible these days.

Something like the attached perhaps. That could provide a two through platform station with minimal layout changes, including an inset bay for the NSR on part of the goods loop. Access would be from Rodden Road with car parking in the field between the railway and the electrical switching station.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'd rate redoubling the section from Wilton jn to either Gillingham or Templecombe a much higher priority than that as it would relieve a bottleneck on the SWR WoE line, which would benefit many more people than what should be seen a a glory project like moving a station.

Oh, so would I, but priorities were not the subject of the thread. Indeed, unless the reopening to Radstock became a priority, then hundreds of other projects would take priority. Incidentally your suggestion would also be of benefit to Frome users, as they can now run to Waterloo direct with SWT, and I do like the suggestion of Radstock to Waterloo! If one were travelling to the airports, a direct link to Woking and Clapham Junction would go down a treat!

Yes, MarkyT has drawn what I had in mind. This way, Radstock pax can get out at the Top of Town halte for the centre of Frome or continue in order to pick up connections at the new station, which they could not do if the station was repositioned out on the cut-off, as the OP suggested.

 

[backontrack]

On a train a while back, I was sat at a table with two members of GWR staff who I assume were from one of the offices at Swindon. I overheard them talking about the possibility of re-opening the freight line towards Radstock for passenger trains, extending from where the freight line currently ends to Radstock but have "another operator" run some of the services. *coughSWTtoLondoncough* with a new station on this line, that would also be a lot closer to the town centre. So you'd have two stations in Frome. One for trains to/from Weymouth, Castle Cary, Westbury, Trowbridge, Bath & Bristol, and the other for trains to/from Radstock extending elsewhere.

That's a nice idea.

 

[kieron]

You could have a station on the mainline, but you'll need to build not only a new station but some quite long passing or platform loops, so that you can stop a train there and then let a fast through without delaying it.

Wow, all of that? The existing junctions are only 40mph on a 100mph line, so trains going through the station need two quite large gaps (on both lines for westbound trains, of course) as things stand.

Perhaps what you'd actually need to make a resited station work would be a timetable recast. Winsford (another of 70014IronDuke's "biggish villages") manages 1tph on a 2 track section of the WCML, so the engineering work needed to build a station on a slower, quieter line may not be as much as you imagine.

I confess that I haven't got much of a sense of what the goal of this planned resiting is. Building stations is expensive (even if you could sell some of the land used by the loop to developers, it's probably not nearly valuable enough to make a difference), and there may be ways to improve the rail service using current infrastructure.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Wow, all of that? The existing junctions are only 40mph on a 100mph line, so trains going through the station need two quite large gaps (on both lines for westbound trains, of course) as things stand.

Perhaps what you'd actually need to make a resited station work would be a timetable recast. Winsford (another of 70014IronDuke's "biggish villages") manages 1tph on a 2 track section of the WCML, so the engineering work needed to build a station on a slower, quieter line may not be as much as you imagine.

I confess that I haven't got much of a sense of what the goal of this planned resiting is. Building stations is expensive (even if you could sell some of the land used by the loop to developers, it's probably not nearly valuable enough to make a difference), and there may be ways to improve the rail service using current infrastructure.

You'd need a dynamic loop to make things work, especially when the enhanced service to Exeter/Riviera/Plymouth/Penzance kicks in with the IEPs (802s).

That way a train stopping at a proposed station on the mainline could enter the platform loop at say 60 mph, rather than a sedate 40 mph, doing that would give the signallers scope to run a stopper in front of a late running fast and the train could then get out of a following fast quicker.

The downside of that is 60 mph or more points are expensive to install & maintain. Anyway it's not going to happen so is there any point in discussing it further?

 

[kieron]

You'd need a dynamic loop to make things work, especially when the enhanced service to Exeter/Riviera/Plymouth/Penzance kicks in with the IEPs (802s).

That way a train stopping at a proposed station on the mainline could enter the platform loop at say 60 mph, rather than a sedate 40 mph, doing that would give the signallers scope to run a stopper in front of a late running fast and the train could then get out of a following fast quicker.

Of course, a 40mph loop in the same situation would also give fewer conflicts than now. Regarding IEP, my understanding is that they have better acceleration than HSTs, so will cope better with slowing down to let a stopper do its thing, whatever that is.

 

[adrock1976]

Would a better solution regarding frequency at Frome be as follows:

1) Bristol TM - Weymouth 1 train every 2 hours
2) Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge - Westbury - Frome 1 train every 2 hours

With both of the above, this would provide a frequency of every 60 minutes between Westbury and Frome.
For Taunton and Devon and Cornwall destinations, a simple change could be made at Castle Cary into a connecting train.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Would a better solution regarding frequency at Frome be as follows:

1) Bristol TM - Weymouth 1 train every 2 hours
2) Swindon - Chippenham - Melksham - Trowbridge - Westbury - Frome 1 train every 2 hours

With both of the above, this would provide a frequency of every 60 minutes between Westbury and Frome.
For Taunton and Devon and Cornwall destinations, a simple change could be made at Castle Cary into a connecting train.

I suspect your suggestion is possibly something close to what may be achieved in the mid-term. The problem being that extending the Swindon-Westbury trains to Frome would, I think, need an extra unit to do the full cycle, but only 'just' - meaning the two units would end up killing a lot of time at either Swindon or Frome not in revenue earning service.

And, honestly speaking, if they could get an extra unit, I think they would much rather use it on the core Swindon-Westbury stretch, most particularly in the evening, when there is only really one 'commuter' timed train out of Swindon. And that is getting to be crush loaded every weekday, from reports, with the guard not having a chance to get round and issue tickets.

The improved service via Melksham since 2014 (?) has exceeded all expectations. Take a look in here:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/c...PSESSID=330o0iucokqvi3sqca4njbd6u4&board=18.0

It would also be good if the Bristol - Weymouth service were every two hours, clock face, but it isn't. It's very much 'sort of' with exceptions, sometimes quite long exceptions.

I don't know, but I wonder if Frome-Exeter passengers (say) have an easement, whereby they can change at Castle Cary or Westbury - any expert out there know?

 

[TheWalrus]

I think the ideal situation would be to leave the current station in situ and serve with the Weymouth services as present. Then build a new Parkway station on the main line in Frome to serve with an hourly semi-fast London-Exeter service to give Frome decent links to London and the West. I would also like to see new stations at Wellington and Cullompton which could also be served by the semi-fast which would strengthen the case for this service.

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^ You forgot Somerton and Langport possibly? It would make this trajectory almost like the Salisbury to Exeter service (and just as slow). It would be more reliable though because of and up and down track. Presumably the parkway station would need to be 4 track. I don't see the point as the current setup achieves this and MarkyT's diagram shews a better location that is future-proofed.

 

[jimm]

I don't know, but I wonder if Frome-Exeter passengers (say) have an easement, whereby they can change at Castle Cary or Westbury - any expert out there know?

I'm no expert but journey planners show Frome-Exeter journeys routed via both points at the same fare.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm no expert but journey planners show Frome-Exeter journeys routed via both points at the same fare.

I suspect that is enough for confirmation. Thank you.

I think the ideal situation would be to leave the current station in situ and serve with the Weymouth services as present. Then build a new Parkway station on the main line in Frome to serve with an hourly semi-fast London-Exeter service to give Frome decent links to London and the West. I would also like to see new stations at Wellington and Cullompton which could also be served by the semi-fast which would strengthen the case for this service.

I don't know about ideal, but the day Network Rail opens a new station 500m from an old one and keeps both open when the new one makes the old redundant is just never going to happen.
I think the only way anything will happen at Frome is if the local authority and govt flings money at it, and the station is moved to serve both a newly opened Radstock branch, as suggested up thread.

Unless some museum foundation type organisation takes the listed station off
NR's hands, then, I suppose, a new station could be opened on the main line.
But again, all this would cost an awful lot of money for what return? I'm afraid Frome is lumbered with this yoke around its neck. It's not the best arrangement, but it will do, sort of. Just imagine how Northampton has missed out over the past 175 years and try to feel better.

I do wish it saw a few more trains though, be they to Weymouth, Southampton, Swindon or Bristol/Gloucester - and even an extra one or two to London/Exeter.

 

[TheWalrus]

^^^ You forgot Somerton and Langport possibly? It would make this trajectory almost like the Salisbury to Exeter service (and just as slow). It would be more reliable though because of and up and down track. Presumably the parkway station would need to be 4 track. I don't see the point as the current setup achieves this and MarkyT's diagram shews a better location that is future-proofed.

Could add those two but I believe there are less people there and therefore maybe less potential?

I don’t think it would be as slow as the Salisbury service. Ideally London-Exeter semi-fasts would call at Reading, Newbury, Hungerford, Bedwyn (1tp2h), Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary, Taunton then maybe alternate Wellington and Cullompton (if built) and Tiverton Parkway every 2 hours.

 

[Francis]

The question of passing loops on the Berks and Hants is quite important. I was on the 1529 ex-Taunton to Paddington on Thursday last week. First, after Westbury we got stuck behind one stone/gravel train from Merehead Quarry and crawled behind it until it got into the loop at Woodborough nr Savernake. Then we got stuck behind another, and the next loop wasn't until after Hungerford 12 miles on. The freights were running each 60-90 mins late. Made us 16 late into Reading, which all impacts on the very busy section thence into Paddington.

 

[Taunton]

If we are going to be moving stations we could maybe start down the line at Westbury, which is sufficiently far out of town that when they built the bypass line which avoids the station by a good distance, it actually passes between the town and the station (I can't think of any other such example), and Dilton Marsh, next stop down the Salisbury line, is not some bucolic rural hamlet, but actually better placed for quite a bit of urban Westbury.

It's a longstanding thought to open up stations like Somerton or Wellington, and start a "Southern Style" intermediate service between Paddington and Exeter, leaving the long distance services nonstop from Reading to Exeter and beyond. You may think this puts good old Taunton down a bit, but at busy times it's become a real issue even getting a seat on the better London trains, certainly for a family or business group to sit together..

 

[HarleyDavidson]

If we are going to be moving stations we could maybe start down the line at Westbury, which is sufficiently far out of town that when they built the bypass line which avoids the station by a good distance, it actually passes between the town and the station (I can't think of any other such example), and Dilton Marsh, next stop down the Salisbury line, is not some bucolic rural hamlet, but actually better placed for quite a bit of urban Westbury.

It's a longstanding thought to open up stations like Somerton or Wellington, and start a "Southern Style" intermediate service between Paddington and Exeter, leaving the long distance services nonstop from Reading to Exeter and beyond. You may think this puts good old Taunton down a bit, but at busy times it's become a real issue even getting a seat on the better London trains, certainly for a family or business group to sit together..

Tell me about it, I usually use 1A89/91 or 1A94 all of which are non stop Taunton to Reading and 1A89 is the slightly quieter one, 91 is the busiest as it's the one any office bods catch being at 1737, 1A94 (soon to be 1A97) is also very busy now compared to what it used to be, especially on Thursday & Friday's. Now if I'm down for my Somerset supplies or for the WSR I book a seat on them, I'm not sitting in a luggage rack, on the floor or standing for 1h 20.

 

[takno]

It's all very well proposing a stopping service for Castle Cary, Westbury and Frome, but how on earth am I going to split my tickets from Exeter to London if the train starts running non-stop?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

For Taunton and Devon and Cornwall destinations, a simple change could be made at Castle Cary into a connecting train.

Earlier this year I was slightly surprised to meet people at Frome station heading for Exeter who were taking the train that runs from Weymouth north via Westbury, Bath and Bristol. They were picking up an Exeter train at Bristol, rather than Westbury.

But if you are travelling to Frome from Reading, you can get routed via Bath.

 

[TheWalrus]

It's all very well proposing a stopping service for Castle Cary, Westbury and Frome, but how on earth am I going to split my tickets from Exeter to London if the train starts running non-stop?

You could get the semi-fast and split at Pewsey/Bedwyn which would probably work out cheaper.

 

[takno]

You could get the semi-fast and split at Pewsey/Bedwyn which would probably work out cheaper.

I wasn't really being serious. Last time I did it I think I ended up on a Castle Cary/Pewsey/Bedwyn split anyway

 

[TheWalrus]

I wasn't really being serious. Last time I did it I think I ended up on a Castle Cary/Pewsey/Bedwyn split anyway

Ah ok makes sense.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If we are going to be moving stations we could maybe start down the line at Westbury, which is sufficiently far out of town that when they built the bypass line which avoids the station by a good distance, it actually passes between the town and the station (I can't think of any other such example), and Dilton Marsh, next stop down the Salisbury line, is not some bucolic rural hamlet, but actually better placed for quite a bit of urban Westbury.

There's an MOT centre in the way for a "Westbury Town" station on the Westbury Avoiding Line and Dilton Marsh should have its platforms extended and upgraded so that one train per two hours calls there rather than having to flag it down, it might make sense to rename Dilton Marsh as Dilton Marsh & Westbury Leigh. Back to Frome and I don't think anyone else has mentioned it - its a good station to turn back at as its not on the mainline.

 

[TheWalrus]

There's an MOT centre in the way for a "Westbury Town" station on the Westbury Avoiding Line and Dilton Marsh should have its platforms extended and upgraded so that one train per two hours calls there rather than having to flag it down, it might make sense to rename Dilton Marsh as Dilton Marsh & Westbury Leigh. Back to Frome and I don't think anyone else has mentioned it - its a good station to turn back at as its not on the mainline.

If Frome was repositioned to the maib line there would potentially be less need for trains to terminate there. It would get more calls from Exeter semi-fasts which could easily compensate for the loss of a few terminating services. Alternatively terminating services could extend to Castle Cary/Yeovil/Taunton.