Requesting Passenger to take London Night Bus when last train is cancelled - Violate NRCOT?

[30907]

No announcement were made at London Bridge Station for any alternative travel or contingency plan.

As a matter of interest, was there a large number of travellers who failed to reach LBG in time, or was it just you?

The advice to walk was correct, except for passengers with restricted mobility, as it's straightforward and less than 15 minutes at normal speed, and LBG staff may not have anticipated a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An alternative bus option was offered.

It doesn't sound like rail ticket acceptance was, though?

 

[island]

It doesn't sound like rail ticket acceptance was, though?

It is not clear from the OP's posts whether it was or not; however, in the OP's scenario they did not have a contract to be carried so it does not arise. In the derivative scenario proposed by MotCO, I would expect Southeastern to arrange for ticket acceptance or repay on request the 95p excess cost incurred (in addition to DelayRepay if applicable).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not clear from the OP's posts whether it was or not; however, in the OP's scenario they did not have a contract to be carried so it does not arise. In the derivative scenario proposed by MotCO, I would expect Southeastern to arrange for ticket acceptance or repay on request the 95p excess cost incurred (in addition to DelayRepay if applicable).

I suppose to be fair the TfL "culture" is that you don't get the fare back if having to use a different mode costs more, as sometimes it'll cost less and so it evens out.

 

[MotCO]

I suppose to be fair the TfL "culture" is that you don't get the fare back if having to use a different mode costs more, as sometimes it'll cost less and so it evens out.

Isn't the issue that the train was provided by South Eastern and not TfL. If it was an Overground service which was cancelled, a TfL bus could be seen as an alternative; surely it would only work in this case if South Eastern had arranged ticket acceptance.

 

[hkstudent]

No, alternative transport was provided. It’s not a case of having to be the sort of alternative that you happen to want.

That's not exactly the case.
TfL Bus is not under the railway nor paid by the railway, nor national rail tickets are accepted. It can hardly say that the London Night bus is offered by the railway system.
If the railway needs to provide something, they need to arrange the transport or provide the ticket on that kind of transport. It doesn't matter what it is, like bus, coach, taxi, horse-drawn carriage, helicopter, back of a bike, whatever.

Needless to mention, the night bus is not timed to meet the railway, which up to 30 minutes wait to be possible, and need to be waiting in a non-railway public area.

Isn't the issue that the train was provided by South Eastern and not TfL. If it was an Overground service which was cancelled, a TfL bus could be seen as an alternative; surely it would only work in this case if South Eastern had arranged ticket acceptance.

If it is in the system, then surely existing alternative transport is offered by the party.
But, as mentioned, as Southeastern is in wrong this time, and no coordination was made with TfL to arrange ticket acceptance and coordinated bus departure time at New Cross Gate to minimise wait at New Cross Gate Station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is in the system, then surely existing alternative transport is offered by the party.
But, as mentioned, as Southeastern is in wrong this time, and no coordination was made with TfL to arrange ticket acceptance and coordinated bus departure time at New Cross Gate to minimise wait at New Cross Gate Station.

They have no obligation to do that.

 

[hkstudent]

As a matter of interest, was there a large number of travellers who failed to reach LBG in time, or was it just you?

The advice to walk was correct, except for passengers with restricted mobility, as it's straightforward and less than 15 minutes at normal speed, and LBG staff may not have anticipated a problem.

There were a couple of passengers trying to walk to platform 6 before and after my arrival at London Bridge Station. I can see many were turned away by Network Rail staff while not providing any alternative advice

They have no obligation to do that.

Yeah, but putting passengers waiting in a public street at night, with a high deprivation rate fails the duty of care.

As a matter of interest, was there a large number of travellers who failed to reach LBG in time, or was it just you?

The advice to walk was correct, except for passengers with restricted mobility, as it's straightforward and less than 15 minutes at normal speed, and LBG staff may not have anticipated a problem.

That walking advice was reasonable and I don't dispute that, as other alternatives including the bus are not very feasible.
It takes 15 minutes to walk from the station entrance to the station entrance. But bear in mind the high escalator at London Bridge which also adds 1.5 minutes. The announcement was started to make through PA system at about 23:46, but the onboard announcement came later.
The last Southeastern train from London Bridge was timed to depart at 00:02.

This sounds theoretical and unrelated to the matter in hand.

If this happens to you, please do make a new thread with the details and we will advise accordingly.

It sounds more like you did not want to change from a train to a bus at New Cross because you felt it would be unsafe in that area and wanted a direct taxi to be provided. I do not think that is reasonable, so any such taxi would need to be at your own expense.

Yeah, it is actually kind of unsafe, as late-night stabbing news at New Cross area (alone) appears in local South London newspapers one to twice a month

 

[Wolfie]

I think there's some rose-tinted thinking when it comes to "rail replacement taxis." The reality is that when it does happen, a porter won't be hailing you your own person cab outside the station. More likely, you may have to wait some hours while people who are higher priority (those with children, the elderly and so on) are marshalled into the first cars to arrive. If you're travelling alone, you'll likely have to share. If you are the only passenger wanting your station, you may go on a detour to stop at (an)other station(s) on the way.

It might seem counter-intuitive, but I wouldn't be surprised if arranging taxi transport at a London terminus is rather difficult too.

I've certainly shared a taxi from Brum New St to Euston with three others when the last train was cancelled. As such l believe that you are spot on.

There were a couple of passengers trying to walk to platform 6 before and after my arrival at London Bridge Station. I can see many were turned away by Network Rail staff while not providing any alternative advice


Yeah, but putting passengers waiting in a public street at night, with a high deprivation rate fails the duty of care.


That walking advice was reasonable and I don't dispute that, as other alternatives including the bus are not very feasible.
It takes 15 minutes to walk from the station entrance to the station entrance. But bear in mind the high escalator at London Bridge which also adds 1.5 minutes. The announcement was started to make through PA system at about 23:46, but the onboard announcement came later.
The last Southeastern train from London Bridge was timed to depart at 00:02.



Yeah, it is actually kind of unsafe, as late-night stabbing news at New Cross area (alone) appears in local South London newspapers one to twice a month

I live in Islington. Many of the houses are multi-million in value. There have been several stabbings recently locally. I wouldn't expect taxis to be provided if trains were cancelled and there were buses running. Frankly your expectations are wholly unrealistic as are your fear levels. Oh, and before l moved to Islington l lived in Peckham. If you think that New Cross is rough....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, but putting passengers waiting in a public street at night, with a high deprivation rate fails the duty of care.

I wouldn't say the railway has a duty of care of that nature. There are lots of reasons you might need to leave a train part-way and spend time at or outside a station not necessarily of your choice. If you don't feel safe in that position perhaps it would be preferable to take a taxi for the full journey at your cost.

Yeah, it is actually kind of unsafe, as late-night stabbing news at New Cross area (alone) appears in local South London newspapers one to twice a month

Most stabbings of that nature are not on random bystanders, they are related to drugs, gangs etc.

I've certainly shared a taxi from Brum New St to Euston with three others when the last train was cancelled. As such l believe that you are spot on.

Agreed. I've only once had a railway taxi to myself that I can think of. Mostly they are shared with all seats taken.

TBH, the only thing that might be a bit off here is if bus acceptance wasn't arranged for someone already holding a paper ticket purchased before the cancellation was advertised. However, as the OP wasn't in that position (possibly, given the nature of these services and their usage, nobody actually was) we don't know if that would have been the case or not. But even then it's not an expensive journey (see my point above that it is highly imprudent to travel late at night without some sort of financial means to get you out of trouble, because there won't necessarily be staff around to sort things) and I'm sure it could be reclaimed easily enough.

 

[Andrew S]

I live in this part of South East London. I was delayed on Wednesday evening because of a trespass incident at Woolwich. The train I was on was delayed getting in to Charlton for 25 or so minutes. These things happen. The driver advised that it might be better to get a local bus to get home, as the traction power was going to be off for a while. I went and got a bus, got home about 45 minutes later than expected but Sainsburys was still open so no big deal. I've put in a delay repay claim.

I really don't think the "buses aren't safe, I need a taxi" argument holds water, tbh.

 

[mmh]

I live in this part of South East London. I was delayed on Wednesday evening because of a trespass incident at Woolwich. The train I was on was delayed getting in to Charlton for 25 or so minutes. These things happen. The driver advised that it might be better to get a local bus to get home, as the traction power was going to be off for a while. I went and got a bus, got home about 45 minutes later than expected but Sainsburys was still open so no big deal. I've put in a delay repay claim.

I really don't think the "buses aren't safe, I need a taxi" argument holds water, tbh.

I'd actually argue that if someone feels unsafe, a bus is probably a better option for them than a train!

 

[londonteacher]

public street at night, with a high deprivation rate fails the duty of care.

What a load of rubbish. Despite what some people want you to believe London is safe unless you happen to be in a gang and looking for travel. Whilst I am not of an ethnic minority so I can't begin to put myself in your shoes, I do feel that unless you are looking for trouble you are safe. After 4 years of living in Liverpool and walking through Toxteth after a night out and doing a lot of night walking in London including through New Cross, you definitely can be safe if you want to be.

Also, New Cross and New Cross Gate station are both on the main road with the N21, N136, 453. M53, N89, N171 buses at least meaning a bus every few minutes. It is well lit, and as I said a busy main arterial route. Never quiet.


Anyway back on topic, from what I have read the OP was using Oyster Pay as You Go and hadn't touched in to begin his journey - this means you have no contract with TFL or Southeastern to make sure you get home. If you were using a Southeastern ticket for the suggested service then this would be different. Therefore, the suggestion of a night bus is good in this scenario. The journey could have been the N343 from London Bridge to Charing Cross, then the N89 direct to Welling for the price of £1.55 so less than what the train journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also, sending a single customer to a deprived area at midnight without staff accompany fails the duty of care and may put customer at risk.

Balderdash. Do you think it's failing duty of care to even *have* a station at New Cross seeing as it's so "unsafe"?

The likelihood of you or I, total randoms, being set upon in New Cross is utterly minimal; in fact, I'd wager riding ten miles in a taxi has a greater risk of harming you than that. I really do wish people would have some perspective about crime in London. Nearly all the shootings and stabbings are of people known to each other, and there aren't hordes of thugs waiting to set upon people minding their own business.

Download the Uber app and keep a slush of money to spend on one.