Requirement for paid for Hotel?

[agbrs_Jack]

At what point does a TOC have to book a hotel for you due to disruption?
Can you ask for this to happen?

An example:
In December I travelled from West Hailes to Congleton routed via Glasgow Central and Avanti West Coast to Preston. (Glasgow departure 18:00 connecting to last Manchester - Congleton service)

The OLE came down at Carstairs so Glasgow/Edinburgh to Carlisle was completely blocked.

I made the decision (based on advice from TPE's twitter team as Glasgow Ctl was chaos) to head to Edinburgh and travel with LNER to Newcastle to change for TPE to Manchester (and then an inevitable taxi from there to Congleton).

On the LNER service a fight broke out at Berwick-upon-Tweed delaying the service for 30m or so.
It looked increasingly likely I was going to miss the last Newcastle - Manchester service (which some people made but were unable to board due to overcrowding!).

I did just about manage to squeeze on (the service was delayed by the LNER service getting priority).
Northern arranged a taxi from Manchester to Congleton getting me home at 0235. (a mere 320m late).

My question is: Had I have missed the train in Newcastle, would I have been entitled to a hotel for the night and travel home the next day. Due to the delay I informed the Train Manager of the LNER service about my connection and my long distance journey and he mentioned a taxi from Newcastle.

A taxi for over 4 hours would not be pleasant at all, where is the line drawn?

 

[sheff1]

National Rail Conditions of Travel Condition 28.2 is the relevant one here

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

The key words are "or if necessary". When it becomes necessary to provide overnight accommodation rather than alternative means of travel will be subject to a range of factors which will vary according to the specific circumstances on the day.

In my experience, if a Train Company can arrange road transport they will. I am pretty certain that taxi journeys of 4 hours plus will have happened before.

 

[Class800]

In my experience it's almost always road transport. But there may be cases where accommodation is called for. I have not encountered one on my journeys or people known personally to me. I know someone who got road transported Birmingham to Plymouth so long road trips can happen. Someone else Birmingham to Leeds. Sometimes it can be a struggle to avoid a stranding despite what the rules say - sometimes TOCs seem to like to claim that it isn't possible to do anything. They seem keen to put 'do not travel' orders in place if the service is badly disrupted. I was delayed a day in London on return to Exeter as SWR said 'do not travel' on my intended day. I had somewhere to stay over free - but if I hadn't, I don't think they'd have paid for anything - would likely have been a battle with travel insurance, to see whether or not they'd cover it. I heard a tale of someone who got stuck overnight at Corrour station with no replacement when last service cancelled and nothing offered - but I don't know how true it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They will usually do road transport if at all possible. I've had a taxi from Preston to Edinburgh, so if they'll do that they'll do most things. So cases requiring hotels will be very niche indeed - quite possibly only cases involving severe weather (in which case they like to shirk their responsibilities anyway) and the Caledonian Sleeper (where if it goes bad a hotel and a day train might be better - though coaches are common).

 

[CrispyUK]

I would have thought there would a bit more case-by-case consideration involved rather than always defaulting to road transport which sounds like is the case. Where long distances are involved, it would probably cost less for the TOC to pay for a hotel stay than a multi-hour taxi fare to destination, providing the passenger isn’t desperate to get there ASAP (there being no direct cost to conveying them the next day on trains that would be running anyway).

 

[Starmill]

Hotels are occasionally offered, and hotels in Preston for Scotland-bound passengers isnine example that actually has happened quite a few times.

A taxi is rather more likely. If you're offered a taxi, even if it's for a journey like Crewe to London, Edinburgh to Hull or Manchester to Peterborough, all of which are real examples I'm aware of having been organised, and you turn it down, I think you'll find it very, very difficult to claim the cost of accommodation back.

By contrast, one friend missed the last service to England on their journey from Aberdeen to Manchester, was offered a hotel in Edinburgh and decided not to take it because they booked National Express instead. The company did agree to pay the National Express fare at a later date.

In May and June in 2018, each night Northern at Manchester Piccadilly were dealing with high double figures, or on bad nights triple figures having been sent there needing taxis because it was they couldn't complete their journey.

One memorable night there, I was put into a taxi with 3 other passengers, and the taxi was dispatched to Mauldeth Road, Levenshulme, and, er, Hindley. On another memorable evening, a rail replacement bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester, of all places, was given a special stop order for Mauldeth Road, just for me!

Missed ferries is another one where hotels are more likely to be organised.

 

[PG]

Not that this counts for anything nowadays but back in the day BR were always famed for not guaranteeing time of arrival just same day arrival.

To my mind that implies that if an arrival time was likely to be I the wee small hours, say after 1am, then hotel it would be.

Like I say I can't see it makes much odds until they do it to the 'wrong person' who then challenges them legally for failure to provide hotel accommodation.

 

[Starmill]

Where long distances are involved, it would probably cost less for the TOC to pay for a hotel stay than a multi-hour taxi fare to destination, providing the passenger isn’t desperate to get there ASAP (there being no direct cost to conveying them

Almost certainly, but long or very long trips by taxi aren't terribly uncommon.

 

[robbeech]

It is quite odd sometimes how TOCs will do anything to organise taxis at several hundreds of pounds rather than a hotel that is likely less than a hundred pounds.
I've had taxis late at night before whereby the cost will easily exceed £400 (TOCs really don't tend to get a preferential rate with taxis, just a priority) in an area where a perfectly acceptable hotel would have been £50 or £60, by the time i had got home i was only less than 3 hours ahead of the next available train.

 

[Haywain]

The key words are "or if necessary". When it becomes necessary to provide overnight accommodation rather than alternative means of travel will be subject to a range of factors which will vary according to the specific circumstances on the day.

I would say that "where it reasonably can" are fairly key words as well. There may be situations in extreme weather where road transport is not an option and hotels are simply not available. A poster in another thread referred to advice not to travel from Edinburgh on a Saturday night when a six nations rugby match had been taking place in the city, and in such circumstances I can imagine hotel accommodation being extremely thin on the ground in the area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One memorable night there, I was put into a taxi with 3 other passengers, and the taxi was dispatched to Mauldeth Road, Levenshulme, and, er, Hindley. On another memorable evening, a rail replacement bus from Manchester Piccadilly to Chester, of all places, was given a special stop order for Mauldeth Road, just for me!

This sounds a bit silly but actually isn't because of the layout of the motorways in south Manchester - you'd do that then go on the M56.

 

[plugwash]

Assuming this is the "Chester via altrincham" service, it normally calls at Stockport. So Mauldeth road would be a bit out of the way.......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming this is the "Chester via altrincham" service, it normally calls at Stockport. So Mauldeth road would be a bit out of the way.......

Not geographically, I meant. While there are benefits to RRBs following standard calling patterns, there is no fundamental need for them to do so if doing otherwise is more efficient.

Down the Kingsway, call at MR, down to Parrs Wood and to Stockport via Wilmslow Road. I bet it wouldn't add much on at all.

 

[Starmill]

This sounds a bit silly but actually isn't because of the layout of the motorways in south Manchester - you'd do that then go on the M56.

Indeed. It was left to the taxi drivers to decide who they were each going to take, so although it was unconventional it was still a reasonable solution. Some of the other people got total chaos, such as a Liverpool-bound taxi taking passengers going to Crewe.

Down the Kingsway, call at MR, down to Parrs Wood and to Stockport via Wilmslow Road. I bet it wouldn't add much on at all.

It seemed like it would work fine, yes.

 

[sheff1]

I would say that "where it reasonably can" are fairly key words as well. There may be situations in extreme weather where road transport is not an option and hotels are simply not available.

The OP was asking if there was a cut off point between a providing a taxi and a hotel. At the point when taxi or hotel becomes the decision the "reasonably can" test would already have been passed. Certainly there wiil be occasional extreme circumstances where neither is an option - as you say, there were discussions about that on a storm-related thread recently

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Thanks for the responses.

A quick google brings up a minimum of £216 for a taxi from Newcastle to Congleton.

I doubt nearby Premier Inns or Travelodges would've cost that much!

I would certainly have been asking for a hotel as it'd be far more pleasant than 4-5 hours in a taxi.

 

[221129]

Thanks for the responses.

A quick google brings up a minimum of £216 for a taxi from Newcastle to Congleton.

I doubt nearby Premier Inns or Travelodges would've cost that much!

I would certainly have been asking for a hotel as it'd be far more pleasant than 4-5 hours in a taxi.

It is unlikely to have cost the TOC that fare though. Also there are only certain hotels that TOCs can use. Premier inn is unlikely to be one of them. If you are given a taxi then you cannot demand a hotel.

 

[greyman42]

Getting Hotel accommodation at short notice in cities such as Edinburgh, Newcastle and York can be difficult during the week, unlikely at weekends. TOCs are not going to pay for 5 star accommodation.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

It is unlikely to have cost the TOC that fare though. Also there are only certain hotels that TOCs can use. Premier inn is unlikely to be one of them. If you are given a taxi then you cannot demand a hotel.

I said ask not demand. There's a difference.
PI/Travelodge were examples.

 

[221129]

I said ask not demand. There's a difference.
PI/Travelodge were examples.

If you're offered a taxi, then it is fairly obvious that is the only option.

 

[kraiken]

If you're offered a taxi, then it is fairly obvious that is the only option.

And the cost comparison is a taxi shared by 4/5 vs 5 hotel rooms and there is more admin for that on the ground with limited staff.
Getting stuck at Preston but Northern Rail left to pick up for a delayed Virgin (at the time) train.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Most TOCs contract out their alternative transport provision to third parties. In the event of a taxi or a bus being required, a single phone call to the contractor is all that is required.
There is no such arrangement for overnight accommodation, and it is very unusual for all but the most senior of managers to have the delegated financial authority and/or the appropriate mechanism to spend large sums of money. Normally it would be the on call director who would make the call, but even then I know of one occasion when a director had to pay out of his own pocket and claim the funds back.

 

[Haywain]

Most TOCs contract out their alternative transport provision to third parties. In the event of a taxi or a bus being required, a single phone call to the contractor is all that is required.
There is no such arrangement for overnight accommodation, and it is very unusual for all but the most senior of managers to have the delegated financial authority and/or the appropriate mechanism to spend large sums of money. Normally it would be the on call director who would make the call, but even then I know of one occasion when a director had to pay out of his own pocket and claim the funds back.

Many businesses use an agency to make hotel bookings as well, which get billed back after the event and as most TOCs are part of larger groups I would be astonished at them not operating their business in such a way. Authority might need to come from an on-call manager or director but that is only a phone call away. However, the ease of doing this doesn't alter what the preference is.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Many businesses use an agency to make hotel bookings as well, which get billed back after the event and as most TOCs are part of larger groups I would be astonished at them not operating their business in such a way. Authority might need to come from an on-call manager or director but that is only a phone call away. However, the ease of doing this doesn't alter what the preference is.

Yes, most TOCs will use an agency for hotel bookings, but this will not be set up for operational reasons but specifically for business reasons. The people with access to the system will be those that organise business meetings, training courses, conferences etc. and will not be part of any on-call structure.
As I said, the delegated financial authority to spend money on hotels will not normally lie with the operations managers.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, most TOCs will use an agency for hotel bookings, but this will not be set up for operational reasons but specifically for business reasons.

That's not been the case in my experience.

 

[smsm1]

Missed ferries is another one where hotels are more likely to be organised.

As is missing the last Eurostar. Due to disruption between Bonn and Köln, we missed the last Eurostar so they put us up in the hotel in the station for the night. Even managed to continue with the Greater Anglia tickets back to Ipswich.

 

[grid56126]

I would have thought there would a bit more case-by-case consideration involved rather than always defaulting to road transport which sounds like is the case. Where long distances are involved, it would probably cost less for the TOC to pay for a hotel stay than a multi-hour taxi fare to destination, providing the passenger isn’t desperate to get there ASAP (there being no direct cost to conveying them the next day on trains that would be running anyway).

In my experience of booking staggering amounts of replacement road transport, be it buses, coaches, minibuses and taxis, the primary reason for doing this over hotels is logistics. I have worked (in the past) in a number of different BR era / TOC jobs and none of them have ever had an "easy" way of booking hotels. Hotels will very rarely simply agree to offer a room on a promise to pay. There have been a few cases at London Terminals where because the staff knew hotel staff things were sorted, but these were very rare events. For the person booking, normally within the control organisation, it is often a case of getting an on call manager senior enough to cough up a company credit card. I have coughed up my own credit card details a few times in extreme cricumstances (family of 5 stuck at Holyhead having missed a boat) and then endured the rigmarole of claiming expenses in a role not entitled to them!

Taxis and buses / coaches tend to have decent contracts in place so is simply the obvious option and again, drawing on a lot of experience, there are limited circumstances in which people decline them. They tend to just want to "get home".

I am not endorsing the practise of poor hotel contracts. The airline industry obviously have it squared off quite well.

I suspect a number of larger stations like Edinburgh / Glasgow etc probably do have contacts they use?

 

[Deerfold]

Taxis and buses / coaches tend to have decent contracts in place so is simply the obvious option and again, drawing on a lot of experience, there are limited circumstances in which people decline them. They tend to just want to "get home".

LNER seem unable to sort a decent contract at Leeds. There's times when there's plenty of taxis but few who will take passengers - I've been told by drivers this is not due to rates but that it can take 3 months to receive payment.

 

[Haywain]

The airline industry obviously have it squared off quite well.

Comparisons with the airline industry are really not very useful as road transport is unlikely to be a real alternative. However, airlines also struggle when they are dealing with hundreds of people to accommodate.

 

[Starmill]

In cases where bus (and, indeed, Rail) transport to destination is feasible e.g. Birmingham to Edinburgh then this in fact is often used instead of hotels.

Of course, airlines often provide overnight accommodation that requires a bus transfer - sometimes rather a long one too. I've heard of passengers left behind by full flights at Manchester Airport taken by minibus to Airport hotels at Birmingham.