Requirements for Universal Route Knowledge

[matacaster]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

 

[Clip]

Roads handily have signage everywhere to assist you however I think it would be a tough call for someone from the southwest to remember the far north line and all the route knowledge needed for there

 

[alex17595]

Not really feasible unless you have a full on Train simulator style heads up display showing route set, speed, distances ect.

 

[plarailfan]

In my view, the roads are a pretty much a shambles, with long distance drivers often not always knowing where they are or what the speed limit is !
They can accidentally find themselves being fined for speeding, incorrectly using bus lanes and a whole host of other infringements.
Every day there are many road accidents. Trucks trying to deliver goods in rural areas can find themselves on good / suitable roads that quickly become narrow and inaccessible (sometimes requiring a crane to lift them out of the situation when they become trapped by sharp bends or walls etc) They may collide with low bridges, go over weak bridges with weight limits, while car drivers have been found travelling at over 100mph on UK motorways. The possibilities are endless......
The excellent safety record on the railways has been steadily built on over the last 170 years. Fortunately, there are very few incidents and freight and passengers move around the network safely, day after day, providing peace of mind to rail users and customers

 

[zwk500]

You need separate driving licenses for HGVs, Minibuses, Motorbikes, Coaches etc... So traction knowledge effectively does exist for roads
A car is driven on the basis that the driver will control their speed to be able to stop short of any danger, therefore they do not need to have any knowledge of the road ahead.

As for what would be required: Time. Lots and lots of time. Drivers would probably need to spend almost all their hours route and traction learning, never being able to actually drive a train in service. The UK has more than 10,000 miles of route to learn, before you even get onto different classes of loco/unit. There'd also have to be an operational need for it from the operator's perspective. If a driver's hours can be used most efficiently with only 2 or 3 routes, why go to the bother and expense of training them on routes they're never going to be rostered on? Equally if a company doesn't operate electric locos why bother training drivers on class 90s?

 

[87015]

Speed signalling not route signalling is the major one, as per places abroad. Traction knowledge is a different kettle of fish and will be required everywhere I'd imagine.

 

[LowLevel]

They do it in Europe by worrying about the speed rather than the route and providing a book in the cab with all the information in.

 

[2192]

Are Portsmouth drivers expected to know all the routes to London, including the possible diversions, eg via Woking then Staines and Hounslow?

 

[zwk500]

Are Portsmouth drivers expected to know all the routes to London, including the possible diversions, eg via Woking then Staines and Hounslow?

Usually they will know the most common diversions, so for Portsmouth-London will be via Eastleigh and Cobham or Epsom in addition to the main Halsemere-Woking route. It depends how easily it can be worked into a driver's shift. It's also fairly normal that if a big closure is coming up they'll run non-passenger workings as specific route refreshers if they don't maintain the route knowledge ordinarily.

I believe route knowledge is considered valid for 6 months, but I'm not sure if it varies between routes/TOCs and if traction is the same.

 

[notlob.divad]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

Getting rid of drivers and having an automated train network.

 

[HSTEd]

Not really feasible unless you have a full on Train simulator style heads up display showing route set, speed, distances ect.

You mean the sort of display entirely possible with ETCS?

If you could provide a cab signalling interface and a comprehensive driver assist system giving gradients etc, I see no issues here.

Such a thing is well within our engineering capability, the question is, who pays?

 

[hexagon789]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

You would need to homogenise different classes of train's controls as much as possible. Switch from route to speed signalling or go to full in-cab signalling.

They do it in Europe by worrying about the speed rather than the route and providing a book in the cab with all the information in.

Many use iPads for this now!

 

[The Planner]

If you have to base it on the position we are in now, either a lot of people in cabs to maintain route knowledge or more route retention paths than could be possible or you universally agree that virtual learning is sufficient.

 

[Horizon22]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

Full ETCS operation or a much longer training time for drivers.

 

[Bald Rick]

In route knowledge terms, ETCS goes some of the way. That doesn’t help with braking points, stopping points etc for stations.

ATO goes most of the way, but there is then the issue of degraded working, or the duties of the driver in protecting a line, etc.

UTO does the job.

 

[Domh245]

In route knowledge terms, ETCS goes some of the way. That doesn’t help with braking points, stopping points etc for stations.

ATO goes most of the way, but there is then the issue of degraded working, or the duties of the driver in protecting a line, etc.

UTO does the job.

I don't know if UTO 'does' the job so much as just glosses over those issues with ATO by saying that in the event of something going wrong it's all stop until resolved, not that it isn't a valid strategy!

 

[Roast Veg]

Extensions to the ECTS standards that include Driver Advisory information for acceleraltion and braking, as well as supplementing other lineside signage like neutral sections, whistle board markers, and even lineside access points would all be required I would have thought.

Convert the sectional appendices into a digitally consumable format and delegate responsibility to keep each area up to date.

Simple...

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know if UTO 'does' the job so much as just glosses over those issues with ATO by saying that in the event of something going wrong it's all stop until resolved, not that it isn't a valid strategy!

Well it’s a statement of fact that guided transport systems without drivers don’t need driver route knowledge!

 

[SynthD]

It sounds like you’d need to make a lot more measurements to permit a useful-speed first run. It would end up like a rally co drivers notes.

 

[HSTEd]

In route knowledge terms, ETCS goes some of the way. That doesn’t help with braking points, stopping points etc for stations.

Couldn't you do stations by signal checking trains into platforms using ETCS?

 

[Bald Rick]

Couldn't you do stations by signal checking trains into platforms using ETCS?

If there’s a block marker on the platform ramp, yes, but that still doesn’t help with precise stopping position.

 

[HSTEd]

If there’s a block marker on the platform ramp, yes, but that still doesn’t help with precise stopping position.

Well one could imagine some sort of horrible system where we have block markers at every stop board!

Wouldn't want to do the interlocking programming on that.

 

[30907]

They do it in Europe by worrying about the speed rather than the route and providing a book in the cab with all the information in.

I am not sure that speed signalling entirely dispenses with the requirement for route knowledge entirely - could one of our mainland European members comment?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Imagine every directional and information sign on the road network being removed. That levels the playing field. Do you think drivers would still be able to drive anywhere, any time, in any vehicle?

 

[bunnahabhain]

They do it in Europe by worrying about the speed rather than the route and providing a book in the cab with all the information in.

I don't think they have zero route knowledge, the few European drivers I've spoken to before still have fairly specific route knowledge and don't tend to work off route. For example NS International high speed drivers sign Thalys and Eurostar e320 and work Amsterdam to Brussels with a few diversionary routes via The Hague and the classic route.

 

[MissPWay]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

I’m not sure it’s as much of an issue as you think.

A driverless network would certainly remove the need for route knowledge. Whether the astronomical cost would be balanced by the saving of a road review day every year is less certain.....

It does reduce flexibility somewhat, but that’s balanced by the fact that companies and depots just don’t go as far as they used to anymore. So unless you’re bringing back BR (who also didn’t have universal route knowledge) then what’s the point?

It’s not really that expensive to maintain as you’ll probably drive most of your routes at least once a year anyway.

With regards to validity it’s more the case that you can request a road refresh rather than it’s taken off your card after 6 months.

Anyway, some of the spot-hire companies have a much more ....... liberal attitude to route knowledge, with predictable results.

 

[mark-h]

If you have to base it on the position we are in now, either a lot of people in cabs to maintain route knowledge or more route retention paths than could be possible or you universally agree that virtual learning is sufficient.

Even if somebody could complete route knowledge journies over the entire network, or via virtual learning, there will be a limit to how much of it they will be able to recall correctly.

I don't think they have zero route knowledge, the few European drivers I've spoken to before still have fairly specific route knowledge and don't tend to work off route.

This may be informal route knowledge, gained through driving over the route many times, rather than formal taught and recorded route knowledge. The question would be whether they would be able to solo drive down a route for the first time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well one could imagine some sort of horrible system where we have block markers at every stop board!

Wouldn't want to do the interlocking programming on that.

There is a minimum block length determined by train detection, so that wouldn’t work.

 

[ExRes]

Anyway, some of the spot-hire companies have a much more ....... liberal attitude to route knowledge, with predictable results.

An interesting comment, are you able to give us some examples of this "liberal attitude to route knowledge, with predictable results" that you mention?

 

[MissPWay]

An interesting comment, are you able to give us some examples of this "liberal attitude to route knowledge, with predictable results" that you mention?

Yes I am, sorry

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8fc940f0b6024100015f/R162013_130916_Stafford.pdf