Reservation labels

[Sprinter]

On a recent East Coast trip I had advance tickets and seats booked (for two) in coach D. However upon boarding (after noting down the loco number) I noted a whole bay of four unreserved in coach B, so me and my friend decided to take this opportunity and move.

Can I then walk back up to coach D and pull the reservations tags off the seats me and friend were meant to occupy? As it says on the rear of them, penalty for unauthorised removal of this label, but I am the one with the corresponding seat reservation.

For the record the only reserved journey of these tags was my own (no one was booked in the same seat after me).

Answers please.

 

[Flamingo]

On a recent East Coast trip I had advance tickets and seats booked (for two) in coach D. However upon boarding (after noting down the loco number) I noted a whole bay of four unreserved in coach B, so me and my friend decided to take this opportunity and move.

Can I then walk back up to coach D and pull the reservations tags off the seats me and friend were meant to occupy? As it says on the rear of them, penalty for unauthorised removal of this label, but I am the one with the corresponding seat reservation.

For the record the only reserved journey of these tags was my own (no one was booked in the same seat after me).

Answers please.

If it was my train, I'd say "Thank you" and think it was very considerate of you to remove them .

I might be less than happy with two of you blocking a table that a party of four could occupy, but that's a different argument...

 

[ainsworth74]

My opinion is that if there is no further need for the reservation (i.e. only your reservation on it) then it is perfectly fine to remove a tag and indeed helpful to do so.

However I did recently do just that on an East Coast service and after sitting back down had a member of EC staff come up to me and say 'that's a £400 fine'. I was a bit confused so replied with something like 'sorry?' and they stated 'taking that reservation down is a £400 fine'. So explained that it was my reservation (and only mine) and as I didn't need it I was taking it off to free up the seat. They told me to 'put it back or it's a £400 fine'.

Part of me was tempted to tell them to go on and fine me then but I decided discretion was the better part of valour and put it back.

So as above I think it's fine but at least one member of EC staff thoroughly disagrees.

 

[jon0844]

If you can prove to staff that it's your reservation, it should be removed if you're going to sit somewhere else. It's only fair to other passengers.

Of course you can't do anything on the electronic reservation displays unless one day a TM with a handheld device could edit them when asked by a passenger.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I think it's only reasonable to remove your own reservation to free up the seat should you not be sitting in it.

Reminds me of when I used to go down the train at the end of the journey collecting every single one for my collection . I even had a guard tell me to sit down to which he then collected all of them and all the window labels and even gave me a few other bits and pieces, happy days!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's only reasonable to remove your own reservation to free up the seat should you not be sitting in it.

I do that. I also remove reservation labels in the entire coach if they are for the wrong train, as that just causes confusion.

 

[Romilly]

There have been previous threads on the removal of reservation labels.

A train carriage is private property, under the immediate control of the train operating company that is the lessee of the carriage. The labels are highly likely to be the property of the company. Ignoring the fact that civil-law rights are in this situation backed up by penalties, interfering with the labels is no different in principle to the situation that would arise if I were to come into your house and re-position, take or bin the birthday/Christmas etc cards on display. Except that, whilst you might accuse a co-occupier of having done it, in which case there may be a row, on the train it is possible that an innocent subsequent passenger who sits in the de-ticketed seat might be accused (and penalised) for the removal, or a manager might take action against a staff member for sloppiness in putting out the tickets in the first place. Both those things are unlikely, but the consequences (if the person accused isn't convincing in their defence) could be disproportionate. I would therefore suggest that there are only two legitimate courses of action: (1) get permission first; or (2) resist the temptation.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I can see it's well meaning hut I don't think it's necessary to remove the label.

If I am on a train without a reservation and a seat is labelled for a journey that has already commenced but is unoccupied, it is perfectly obvious that it's free, and to start removing labels can (as illustrated above) cause all sorts of unnecessary grief.

 

[LexyBoy]

For the same reasons as Romilly outlined, I always make sure never to use toilet paper or wash my hands on trains

 

[IanD]

I can see it's well meaning hut I don't think it's necessary to remove the label.

If I am on a train without a reservation and a seat is labelled for a journey that has already commenced but is unoccupied, it is perfectly obvious that it's free, and to start removing labels can (as illustrated above) cause all sorts of unnecessary grief.

I feel I should repeat my stance that it is not at all obvious that such a seat is free! The intended occupier may have done any or all of these: gone for pee; gone to the buffet car; stepped out to the vestibule to make a phone call so as not to annoy other passengers; boarded at the wrong end of the train and is trying valiantly to make their way to said seat (on a severely crowded train that my take a while, perhaps more than one stop). My opinion is that if I have reserved a seat, I have reserved it for the entire portion of the journey from Station A to Station B, not from Station A to 200 yards beyond Station A. As the reservation labels display both start and end station then it would appear that the TOCs back up that opinion.

 

[yorkie]

There should, in my opinion, be a clear published rule that any seat unoccupied (and without any evidence of occupancy such as a coat on it) after, say, 10-15mins journey time after the station, the current reservation is no longer valid.

I was once turfed off a Durham-London seat, which I had occuped at York, from Grantham (ie, 50mins into my journey) by an unpleasant lady of many years my senior (I could think of a phrase consisting of two 3-letter words, used by René_Artois, that I'd prefer to use, but I suppose I'd better not ).

It's easy to say 'don't move' for people like that, but they know they can make things unpleasant for you if you don't, so I reluctantly did.

If there was a clearly published rule I could have referred to, I may have been tempted to make a stand and say no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is the policy on DB - indeed a short time after each station the guard comes through and removes the labels, or they are automatically removed if it's an electronic display. You are expected to occupy your seat (or put a coat on it or something) shortly after departure.

 

[Greenback]

Some FGW guards do the same thing, right Flamingo?!

At least a rule would offer some clarity and consistency.

 

[Flamingo]

There should, in my opinion, be a clear published rule that any seat unoccupied (and without any evidence of occupancy such as a coat on it) after, say, 10-15mins journey time after the station, the current reservation is no longer valid.

I was once turfed off a Durham-London seat, which I had occuped at York, from Grantham (ie, 50mins into my journey) by an unpleasant lady of many years my senior (I could think of a phrase consisting of two 3-letter words, used by René_Artois, that I'd prefer to use, but I suppose I'd better not ).

It's easy to say 'don't move' for people like that, but they know they can make things unpleasant for you if you don't, so I reluctantly did.

If there was a clearly published rule I could have referred to, I may have been tempted to make a stand and say no.

Several times I have been called on in circumstances like this to move people out of a seat it was reasonable for them to think was available. I've usually resolved it by asking the person occupying the reserved seat to move to First Class, if the person insisting on having their reserved seat won't accept an alternative seat nearby.
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Some FGW guards do the same thing, right Flamingo?!

At least a rule would offer some clarity and consistency.

I do my best to!

 

[34D]

Several times I have been called on in circumstances like this to move people out of a seat it was reasonable for them to think was available. I've usually resolved it by asking the person occupying the reserved seat to move to First Class, if the person insisting on having their reserved seat won't accept an alternative seat nearby.

I would love to travel on one of your trains.

Staff proactivity in removing expired and untaken reservations would be appreciated.

How should a solo traveller going to toilet mark his territory though?

 

[Flamingo]

I've never known a problem with someone going to the buffet/loo and finding their seat occupied when they came back. I'm sure it sometimes occurs, but the people involved seem able to sort it out without requiring the intervention of the guard...

 

[Greenback]

In my experience, when I travel on my own, the train is full and I need to visit the facilities, someone sitting near me will usually tell any interloper that the seat is occupied!

It hasn't been a problem for me in thirty years!

 

[crehld]

How should a solo traveller going to toilet mark his territory though?

I believe a coat or a reputable broadsheet are the conventions. I also ask the passenger next to me if they'd mind holding it for me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've never known a problem with someone going to the buffet/loo and finding their seat occupied when they came back. I'm sure it sometimes occurs, but the people involved seem able to sort it out without requiring the intervention of the guard...

Only happened once. Was quickly resolved with the words: "oh, I was sitting here and just popped to the buffet. Indeed that's my coat you're sitting on!"

 

[rg177]

I once sat in someone's seat at York. They'd gone somewhere else while the train was pulled in there and there was no indication that anyone was even sat there except an empty bottle of water.

Said occupier of seat wasn't amused but she just wandered off without me getting a chance to give her it back...

 

[trainophile]

I was once turfed off a Durham-London seat, which I had occuped at York, from Grantham (ie, 50mins into my journey) by an unpleasant lady of many years my senior (I could think of a phrase consisting of two 3-letter words, used by René_Artois, that I'd prefer to use, but I suppose I'd better not ).

Wasn't by the name of Thatcher was she?

I boarded my Euston to Liverpool train today about 15 minutes before departure (for once they weren't keeping the platform a secret until the last minute!), to find a large woman installed in my seat, despite the electronic display (now working again) showing it as Reserved.

I looked for another forward facing unreserved seat but there wasn't one in my coach, so I returned to seat 09 and said "I think you might be in my seat"... to which she replied "oh, do you want me to move then?". Duh, well that is the general idea. She grudgingly collected up all her bags and coat and moved to the opposite side which was unreserved. We spent the journey in an atmosphere of mild silent antagonism (apart from her lengthy phone calls :roll. Unnecessary and avoidable.

Sorry for the off topic diversion but I wanted to get it off my chest!

 

[yorkie]

Wasn't by the name of Thatcher was she?

No, she was from Durham, but I suspect she had located a 'superior' seat elsewhere and got turfed out of that seat herself at Grantham. I suppose I should have said "certainly, but can I just ask why you didn't occupy it earlier?" just to see what her excuse was.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I also remove reservation labels in the entire coach if they are for the wrong train, as that just causes confusion.

If you're sure you're on the train you think you are

 

[MarlowDonkey]

(or put a coat on it or something)

A towel surely on DB

 

[sheff1]

There should, in my opinion, be a clear published rule that any seat unoccupied (and without any evidence of occupancy such as a coat on it) after, say, 10-15mins journey time after the station, the current reservation is no longer valid.

But we are constantly being told to keep our belongings with us at all times and not to leave anything unattended. So, no one should be leaving a coat on seat if they go to the buffet/toilet !

I would be most put out if I was following instructions and returned to find someone in my reserved seat who was now entitled to be there due to new rules.

That is the policy on DB - indeed a short time after each station the guard comes through and removes the labels, or they are automatically removed if it's an electronic display. You are expected to occupy your seat (or put a coat on it or something) shortly after departure.

Yes, but that is fine as there are no instructions about not leaving things unattended on DB.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've never known a problem with someone going to the buffet/loo and finding their seat occupied when they came back. I'm sure it sometimes occurs, but the people involved seem able to sort it out without requiring the intervention of the guard...

It happened to me once, but he apologised and moved.

 

[trainophile]

I'm certainly not lugging a suitcase and a backpack and a handbag to the toilet! Usually just ask someone seated nearby if they would keep an eye on my stuff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but that is fine as there are no instructions about not leaving things unattended on DB.

The announcements say not to leave luggage unattended, do they not? Not that you can't put your jumper (which obviously doesn't contain anything) on the seat? I always do if I go away from my seat to make it obvious it is occupied.

 

[Hellfire]

However I did recently do just that on an East Coast service and after sitting back down had a member of EC staff come up to me and say 'that's a £400 fine'. I was a bit confused so replied with something like 'sorry?' and they stated 'taking that reservation down is a £400 fine'. So explained that it was my reservation (and only mine) and as I didn't need it I was taking it off to free up the seat. They told me to 'put it back or it's a £400 fine'.

.

Surely the term £400 fine is the maximum you could be fined by a court if the TOC went to the bother of prosecuting you under the bylaws. As we know from numerous threads only courts can issue fines.

Does anyone have any experience of a TOC actually doing this.

 

[Flamingo]

Given that persistent fare evaders, drunks who assault both staff and passengers, and trespassers stand a 1/100 chance of ending up in court, do you really think anybody would be prosecuted over this? Especially if it was their own seat reservation they were removing?

 

[jon0844]

You never know. It might be considered a nice easy case compared to gathering evidence for a persistent fare evader!!