Reserving extra seats

[VauxhallandI]

Apologies I'm sure this has been covered, I did do a search but obviously an unsuccessful one.

Scenario

Let's pick Virgin East Cost

Four First Class seats booked around a table but only two actually travelling.

Done to ensure they have the table to themselves.

I believe the traveller has no right to enforce the non use of the other two seats?

I believe this is with any TOC and is enshrined in the NCoT?

 

[bb21]

If the customers the reservations were for did not turn up, it would be a free for all for those seats. Fair game.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Four First Class seats booked around a table but only two actually travelling.

Done to ensure they have the table to themselves.

I believe the traveller has no right to enforce the non use of the other two seats?

It used to be the case that one could book a dedicated compartment (remember those?) or coach by purchasing tickets for and reserving all the seats therein. I don't think it's the case any more though, dedicated accommodation needs to be specially arranged.

So no, they don't get to turn others away unless they have made those dedicated arrangements. A no-show forfeits their seat.

 

[PeterC]

If you had all four travel tickets, not just the seat reservations, then you could argue (probably without success) that you were entitled to exclusive use of the table.

 

[EssexGonzo]

If the privacy was that important, or the working space, then some sort of posh taxi/minibus or car service would be more effective for 2 people?

Unless you're the PM of course when for optical reasons, you can reserve a whole 1st class carriage to show you're down and dirty with real people.

 

[bb21]

If you had all four travel tickets, not just the seat reservations, then you could argue (probably without success) that you were entitled to exclusive use of the table.

There is no such provision.

 

[najaB]

Four First Class seats booked around a table but only two actually travelling.

Done to ensure they have the table to themselves.

Any not just book the single seats on the other side of the carriage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any not just book the single seats on the other side of the carriage?

Wanting a bigger table?

I don't TBH have any moral issue with people doing that if they wish provided they pay for the appropriate adult fare for all 4 seats (or 2 if wanting a pair of airlines or a table for two to yourself). But I indeed do not believe there is any framework to do it as things are at present.

 

[Hadders]

Wanting a bigger table?

I don't TBH have any moral issue with people doing that if they wish provided they pay for the appropriate adult fare for all 4 seats (or 2 if wanting a pair of airlines or a table for two to yourself). But I indeed do not believe there is any framework to do it as things are at present.

Totally unacceptable imo. There is insufficient capacity for people to reserve additional seats so they can enjoy more space, if other people are left standing. Whether or not they have purchased additional tickets is immaterial.

Seats are for people to sit on, not to cart fresh air around while others are left standing.

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm not sure how the "insufficient capacity" argument could be relevant where quota-controlled Advance tickets are purchased.

One could bring two inflatable dolls along and stick the Advance tickets and seat reservations to the forehead of each.

 

[All Line Rover]

And make sure the dolls are of children, then you only need to pay for child fares!

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure how the "insufficient capacity" argument could be relevant where quota-controlled Advance tickets are purchased.

One could bring two inflatable dolls along and stick the Advance tickets and seat reservations to the forehead of each.

I buy 4 Advance tickets with reservations so I can spread out on a table for 4. It's a busy train and all seats get reserved.

You come along with a walk up ticket. The only available seats are those at my table which I have reserved, but are unoccupied. I want a table to myself so you end up standing.

That's not right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some open access railways (MTR Express is one, Locomore was until it collapsed) don't have First Class coaches per-se, they instead do things like keep the next seat free.

It's an interesting business model, though it only works with compulsory reservations.

 

[All Line Rover]

You come along with a walk up ticket. The only available seats are those at my table which I have reserved, but are unoccupied. I want a table to myself so you end up standing.

That's not right.

In the hypothetical scenario that there are no unreservable first class seats on VTEC, why would I choose to travel on a train which I know to be fully reserved and then demand a seat?

 

[mickulty]

In the hypothetical scenario that there are no unreservable first class seats on VTEC, why would I choose to travel on a train which I know to be fully reserved and then demand a seat?

How would a passenger with a walk-up ticket know the train was fully reserved?

 

[najaB]

....why would I choose to travel on a train which I know to be fully reserved and then demand a seat?

Because the seats aren't being used.

 

[All Line Rover]

How would a passenger with a walk-up ticket know the train was fully reserved?

In practice one can't, as VTEC and VTWC trains are never "fully" reserved (VTWC having reneged on the negative change, which I mentioned on this forum a few months ago, of allowing seat reservations in Coach F on Class 390 trains).

 

[455driver]

Had a similar situation a few years ago, 2 travelling o a groupsave ticket with 4 reservations, as the train was very full (12:20 Waterloo to Exeter on a Friday afternoon) and I was travelling in uniform I asked them to remove their bags from the other two seats so some other passengers could sit, they informed me very robustly that they were entitled to the seats as they were travelling on a groupsave 4 ticket. I went and informed the Guard of their attitude and ticket and once he had received the same curt reply he took great pride in showing them the back of the ticket where it clearly stated that there had to be at least 3 people travelling to validate the ticket, but as there were only two of them the ticket wasnt valid and they would have to buy new tickets, much grumbling and offers to be 'assisted' off the train at Woking resulted in them being relieved of £120 for the new tickets and then being advised to remove their bags from the two other seats.

I did try to reason with them and even stated that their ticket wasnt valid but they flatly refused to remove their bags, if they had removed their bags I wouldnt have involved the Guard but some people are just plain ignorant and selfish.

I did give them a smug grin as they left the train at Sherborne!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Hello,

Looking for hard terms over morales folks.

Is it hard wired into the NCoT

I can understand the reasons why th scenario is happening I just want to be able to advise prior to any incident so the concerned parties are aware of the final abiding terms

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no scope to permit it within the NRCoT that I know of. I believe there is scope to reserve dedicated accommodation (a coach, say) - but that has its own separate processes and you can't achieve it by just buying say 76 tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

And make sure the dolls are of children, then you only need to pay for child fares!

If it's a new doll they can travel for free.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it hard wired into the NCoT

Nope.

 

[DelW]

I've done something similar on several occasions on charter trains (all advance booking and all allocated seats), where three of us have bought four tickets in order to get a bay of four seats to ourselves (Mk 1 TSOs, so all seating in bays round a table). It has the benefit of giving us two window seats, but we started after a couple of occasions when we had unfortunate experiences with the fourth occupant of the bay. Well worth the extra 1/3 on the ticket price IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Charter trains are different, as are other trains with compulsory reservations, because usually there won't be people without their own allocated seat on those.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Nope.

Ta, so it would be on a TOC by TOC basis then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ta, so it would be on a TOC by TOC basis then.

I guess so, though I am unaware of any TOC that allows it. Some TOCs will reserve you a whole coach at a suitably swingeing fee, but only if you go via a specific booking process, not simply by reserving all the seats at the regular fare.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I guess so, though I am unaware of any TOC that allows it. Some TOCs will reserve you a whole coach at a suitably swingeing fee, but only if you go via a specific booking process, not simply by reserving all the seats at the regular fare.

To be not permitted it must be expressed somewhere though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be not permitted it must be expressed somewhere though?

You can buy as many tickets and reserve as many seats as you like.

However, a seat with nobody sitting in it is available for use, and the unused ticket is (if it's an Advance) forfeit, or (if it's a walk-up) refundable minus £10.

This, fairly tenuously, would confirm that:

3.2

Some types of Ticket (for instance advance Tickets) require you to make a
reservation when buying your Ticket. For other Tickets you can request a
reservation either when buying a Ticket, or before the departure of your train on presentation of a valid Ticket, at most staffed stations. You are allowed a maximum of one seat reservation per person for each train that forms part of your journey.

Note "per person", not "per ticket".

 

[bb21]

To be not permitted it must be expressed somewhere though?

You do not buy a seat. You buy a contract to travel.

Seat not included in ticket price.

No travel, no seat.

 

[All Line Rover]

Note "per person", not "per ticket".

Hence the dolls suggestion. Nothing in the NRCoT suggests a 'person' has to be a human. Not even anything resembling a 'person' - guards reserve the right to charge a ticket 'to' luggage occupying seats.