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Reshuffling Scarborough services to increase connectivity

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HST43257

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So pre-covid there was a standard 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool service via Leeds and Man Vic. I was wondering if this TPE service could be diverted to go via Wakefield Kirkgate? Giving Wakefield a service to Manchester and Liverpool will be one of those things that really helps that area.

However, this change would mean that Scarborough loses its Leeds connection. Could the Cross Country service via Leeds
continue to Scarborough, with the service via Doncaster extending to Edinburgh? TPE can continue to operate the Leeds to Edinburgh service, with NPR doing that later on.

Post covid, I’m guessing Scarborough will continue to be a very important leisure destination, so eventually 2tph could be no bad thing, especially in the Summer. It would allow Northern to stop at more small places (or just Barton Hill Parkway?) in order to take cars off the A64 plus outer suburbs like Haxby and Strensall.
 
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JonathanH

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So pre-covid there was a standard 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool service via Leeds and Man Vic. I was wondering if this TPE service could be diverted to go via Wakefield Kirkgate? Giving Wakefield a service to Manchester and Liverpool will be one of those things that really helps that area.

However, this change would mean that Scarborough loses its Leeds connection. Could the Cross Country service via Leeds
continue to Scarborough, with the service via Doncaster extending to Edinburgh? TPE can continue to operate the Leeds to Edinburgh service, with NPR doing that later on.

Post covid, I’m guessing Scarborough will continue to be a very important leisure destination, so eventually 2tph could be no bad thing, especially in the Summer. It would allow Northern to stop at more small places (or just Barton Hill Parkway?) in order to take cars off the A64 plus outer suburbs like Haxby and Strensall.
The problem with Scarborough is that the services can only use two through platforms at York and most of the desired destinations involve them crossing over to the other side of the layout. There was a plan to give Scarborough a second service to York that used the bay platform there.

There is also the single platform at Malton that constrains the timetable planning somewhat. I wonder whether a 2tph Scarborough to York shuttle would be traded for the loss of a 1tph through service.

I don't see Cross Country running to Scarborough any time soon.

There are some merits of improving the service at Wakefield to Manchester or Liverpool but it would seem unlikely to happen in the short term.
 

HST43257

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The problem with Scarborough is that the services can only use two through platforms at York and most of the desired destinations involve them crossing over to the other side of the layout. There was a plan to give Scarborough a second service to York that used the bay platform there.

There is also the single platform at Malton that constrains the timetable planning somewhat. I wonder whether a 2tph Scarborough to York shuttle would be traded for the loss of a 1tph through service.

I don't see Cross Country running to Scarborough any time soon.

There are some merits of improving the service at Wakefield to Manchester or Liverpool but it would seem unlikely to happen in the short term.
For Malton you just need a 2nd platform and a foot crossing with a light (saying whether it’s safe to go).

I don’t believe the shuttle going with the same stops as the TPE has any benefit, especially as it’s only 10 mins later coming from York.

The XC could cross Country over between lines at a very good speed (110mph maybe?) at a new wider curve at the south end of Church Fenton, meaning you can get from CHF P1 & P2 to the Leeds lines, but not Sherburn to P3. Would save at least a minute i reckon.
 

JonathanH

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For Malton you just need a 2nd platform and a foot crossing with a light (saying whether it’s safe to go).
There is no chance of that being approved as safe on the modern railway. A bridge with lifts would need to be installed to a new platform which isn't going to be cheap.

I don’t believe the shuttle going with the same stops as the TPE has any benefit, especially as it’s only 10 mins later coming from York.
No, hence why it would be better to have an evenly spaced 2tph service from York to Scarborough and abandon the through connections.

The XC could cross Country over between lines at a very good speed (110mph maybe?) at a new wider curve at the south end of Church Fenton, meaning you can get from CHF P1 & P2 to the Leeds lines, but not Sherburn to P3. Would save at least a minute i reckon.
That sounds like infrastructure spending for a very limited purpose. That isn't going to happen solely to get Cross Country trains to Scarborough. I don't think the speed of the crossing is what is important - it isn't going to be a 110mph junction either. The issues are at York anyway, not Church Fenton.
 

HST43257

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There is no chance of that being approved as safe on the modern railway. A bridge with lifts would need to be installed to a new platform which isn't going to be cheap.
Would probably be put in anyway to be fair if the extra tph happens
No, hence why it would be better to have an evenly spaced 2tph service from York to Scarborough and abandon the through connections.
They won’t evenly space them on the shuttle because that would mean an extra diagram.

That sounds like infrastructure spending for a very limited purpose. That isn't going to happen solely to get Cross Country trains to Scarborough. I don't think the speed of the crossing is what is important - it isn't going to be a 110mph junction either. The issues are at York anyway, not Church Fenton.
My point is that you don’t need to cross the lines at the throat of the station.
 

JonathanH

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They won’t evenly space them on the shuttle because that would mean an extra diagram.
I'm suggesting that York to Scarborough is run as a self-contained 2tph shuttle running from platform 2 at York completely independently of anything other than the Hull services at Seamer and the stretches of single track. Then they can run at an even pattern.
 

HST43257

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I'm suggesting that York to Scarborough is run as a self-contained 2tph shuttle running from platform 2 at York completely independently of anything other than the Hull services at Seamer and the stretches of single track. Then they can run at an even pattern.
This would mean that the route loses Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool connections, which count for a fair few leisure travellers to the seaside town.
 

Ianno87

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This would mean that the route loses Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool connections, which count for a fair few leisure travellers to the seaside town.

Who could still change at York, and actually have a more frequent service (2tph with a connection, rather than 1tph direct)
 

HST43257

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Who could still change at York, and actually have a more frequent service (2tph with a connection, rather than 1tph direct)
If people have luggage and have to change they’ll just say “thanks very much I’ve got the M62, A1 and A64 so I can use my car instead”.
 

Ianno87

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If people have luggage and have to change they’ll just say “thanks very much I’ve got the M62, A1 and A64 so I can use my car instead”.

You could apply that argument between any pair of stations you like.

I wonder, on the other hand, how many daytrippers from York drive today because they have to join an already busy train arriving from beyond Leeds....
 

HST43257

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You could apply that argument between any pair of stations you like.

I wonder, on the other hand, how many daytrippers from York drive today because they have to join an already busy train arriving from beyond Leeds....
That’s why you have 5/6 car trains now and a 2nd through tph would be excellent.
 

YorksLad12

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If people have luggage and have to change they’ll just say “thanks very much I’ve got the M62, A1 and A64 so I can use my car instead”.

You could apply that argument between any pair of stations you like.

I wonder, on the other hand, how many daytrippers from York drive today because they have to join an already busy train arriving from beyond Leeds....

If you had same platform transfer, and an intelligent booking system that meant everyone travelling Scarborough to York had a reservation in the onward connection in the same coach/carriage, so that they were all ushered to the same spot on the platform... yeah, unrealistic, I know!
 

HST43257

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If you had same platform transfer, and an intelligent booking system that meant everyone travelling Scarborough to York had a reservation in the onward connection in the same coach/carriage, so that they were all ushered to the same spot on the platform... yeah, unrealistic, I know!
Same platform interchange from the Scarborough line at York is impossible. Nothing except S’boro trains can use Platforms 2 and 4. Everywhere else is a long walk away.
 

JonathanH

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If you had same platform transfer, and an intelligent booking system that meant everyone travelling Scarborough to York had a reservation in the onward connection in the same coach/carriage, so that they were all ushered to the same spot on the platform... yeah, unrealistic, I know!
I don't think you could ensure that all connections were cross platform at York. The whole point of splitting services would be that Scarborough services could be self-contained as the best way to enhance the service frequency and trains to Leeds could all use platforms 10 and 11 to remove conflicts.

Was there ever a time when the service on the Scarborough line ran mainly from platform 2 at York and not to destinations across the Pennines?
 

YorksLad12

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Same platform interchange from the Scarborough line at York is impossible. Nothing except S’boro trains can use Platforms 2 and 4. Everywhere else is a long walk away.

You could walk from P2 down to P4 without crossing anything though. Good enough for me.
 

JonathanH

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You could walk from P2 down to P4 without crossing anything though. Good enough for me.
I think you mean walk from platform 2 to platform 3 - platform 4 is that odd bit at the north end of the station which is an extension of the platform 3 face and only accessible from the Scarborough line.
 

swt_passenger

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What would be so difficult about having the existing 1tph through service and adding in an additional 1tph shuttle to York?
I thought a Northern Scarborough - York had already been timetabled but is currently deferred, so presumably it is achievable?
 

Anvil1984

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What would be so difficult about having the existing 1tph through service and adding in an additional 1tph shuttle to York?

You'd be a rubbish crayons salesman! But you're right to be honest its the most sensible option and was mooted. It just depends if and when Northern start route learning again
 

Bevan Price

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I don't think you could ensure that all connections were cross platform at York. The whole point of splitting services would be that Scarborough services could be self-contained as the best way to enhance the service frequency and trains to Leeds could all use platforms 10 and 11 to remove conflicts.

Was there ever a time when the service on the Scarborough line ran mainly from platform 2 at York and not to destinations across the Pennines?
Probably the opposite. At one time, Scarborough trains could cross the entire layout at the North end of York station, and use the "high-numbered" platforms.
 

Fokx

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So pre-covid there was a standard 1tph Scarborough to Liverpool service via Leeds and Man Vic. I was wondering if this TPE service could be diverted to go via Wakefield Kirkgate? Giving Wakefield a service to Manchester and Liverpool will be one of those things that really helps that area.

Although this might be lovely for the residents of Wakefield, VERY FEW Liverpudlians, Mancunians and the lovely people of Scarborough will be wanting to travel to Wakefield unless they absolutely have to, compared to a major city like Leeds. I wouldn’t exactly call Wakefield Kirkgate station welcoming either in its current state.

It might work well for an all stations stopping service calling at stations such as Castleford along the way but not a regional intercity express
 

YorksLad12

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I think you mean walk from platform 2 to platform 3 - platform 4 is that odd bit at the north end of the station which is an extension of the platform 3 face and only accessible from the Scarborough line.

Quite possibly. The bit of platform closest to the pub, is what I mean. You're still on the same physical platform. Doesn't work in the opposite direction, I realise.

If I use an online planner to work out a route from Loughborough to Leeds it will tell me to change at Chesterfield instead of Sheffield, because the next train I need to catch will call at the same platform at Chesterfield whereas it could call or be waiting at any of five at Sheffield. But if my first train arrives Sheffield on P2 and the train out is on P3, P4 or arrives at P2 or P5 then I'm on the same island. When all of the TPE services went off P15 eastbound and P16 westbound you could do something similar there for, say, Hull passengers wanting to change for a Liverpool service. Or do it at Huddersfield, which is a bit quieter.

That was my thinking behind my original comment, but York's layout means you can't easily do it in the opposite direction anyway.
 

Aictos

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Best thing to do would be to allow Northern to operate a 2tph service between Scarborough and York and instead either terminate the Scarborough bound TPE at York in one of the terminal platforms or reroute it to another destination.

Both would improve service reliability and remove any pathing conflicts at York.
 

Nym

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You'd be a rubbish crayons salesman! But you're right to be honest its the most sensible option and was mooted. It just depends if and when Northern start route learning again
Why would it need to be run by Northern?

If the 185s are still on force, one or two of them to run the shuttle, sharing drivers with the other TPE route, or making use of a Mk.5A+68 formation to run the shuttle would introduce (provided the controllers were permitted to, and willing to make a commitment to a decision at the time) some good resilience into the TPE service. Effectively having a spare set or two shuttling between York and Scarbrough, that can step up to a core service duty if there's an issue or delays.

Or should diagramming work better another way, alternating the services operated by a diagram between shuttle and core services. I've not looked in enough detail at the timetables to be able to derive this.

But, it would seem that having two operators on this route would just introduce unnecessary complication for things like, diagramming, service recovery, crews, route learning and all sorts of other problems down the line. When we have an operator that is able to run it, has stock identical to it's current available to lease, which has a light maintenance facility at one end of the shuttle route. It would also play nicely into any other potential station re-openings on the York - Scarborough line.
 

alistairlees

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Quite possibly. The bit of platform closest to the pub, is what I mean. You're still on the same physical platform. Doesn't work in the opposite direction, I realise.

If I use an online planner to work out a route from Loughborough to Leeds it will tell me to change at Chesterfield instead of Sheffield, because the next train I need to catch will call at the same platform at Chesterfield whereas it could call or be waiting at any of five at Sheffield. But if my first train arrives Sheffield on P2 and the train out is on P3, P4 or arrives at P2 or P5 then I'm on the same island. When all of the TPE services went off P15 eastbound and P16 westbound you could do something similar there for, say, Hull passengers wanting to change for a Liverpool service. Or do it at Huddersfield, which is a bit quieter.

That was my thinking behind my original comment, but York's layout means you can't easily do it in the opposite direction anyway.
This isn't correct. The data used by online journey planners doesn't contain any such information.
 

YorksLad12

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This isn't correct. The data used by online journey planners doesn't contain any such information.

It/they might not *contain* any such information - it might not even be the result you got when you just tried it - but that was the result I always got. A human would say to change at Sheffield, it being the larger of the two. But a same-platform interchange at Chesterfield would take less time than the minimum interchange time at Sheffield (obviously). Are you sure that isn't coming into play?
 

tbtc

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If the answer is "diverting XC to Scarborough" then I'm not too keen - fine if you want to save resources and cut the "via Leeds" services at York/Leeds (to use the freed up Voyagers elsewhere on the network - there's no need for six trains per hour from York to Newcastle) but you'd need the same number of Voyagers to run to Scarborough (both roughly an hour beyond York, so no units saved) plus you run into the complication of it being a lot harder for crews (at the moment XC staff can swap at Newcastle between the "via Leeds" and "via Doncaster" services).

What I would be in favour of would be turning Scarborough - York into a half hourly shuttle from the bay platforms at the north east of York station, with a handful of through services to Leeds. You could probably time these every couple of hours, e.g. an eight o'clock swap over at York would mean that the westbound service arrived into Leeds at rush hour, a ten o'clock swap over at York would be good for the day tripper market in each direction, but keep the majority of services terminating at York to ensure that they run (given the problems caused by TPE's timetable and the number of services cut short at Malton in recent years, I think that a reliable service as far as York ought to be the focus, rather than the handful of people travelling all the way to Manchester/ Liverpool).

Same goes with a half hourly service from Teesside to York (combination of Sunderland and Middlesbrough services), but they don't all need to run beyond York (there are plenty of connections at York for other places).

If I use an online planner to work out a route from Loughborough to Leeds it will tell me to change at Chesterfield instead of Sheffield, because the next train I need to catch will call at the same platform at Chesterfield whereas it could call or be waiting at any of five at Sheffield. But if my first train arrives Sheffield on P2 and the train out is on P3, P4 or arrives at P2 or P5 then I'm on the same island

This isn't correct. The data used by online journey planners doesn't contain any such information.

It/they might not *contain* any such information - it might not even be the result you got when you just tried it - but that was the result I always got. A human would say to change at Sheffield, it being the larger of the two. But a same-platform interchange at Chesterfield would take less time than the minimum interchange time at Sheffield (obviously). Are you sure that isn't coming into play?

This could be because the London - Sheffield trains (which presumably you are getting from Loughborough) have a few minutes of additional time allocated for the last section of the journey (i.e. Chesterfield to Sheffield) to ensure that they arrive on time. So your train might arrive at Chesterfield with enough time to give a connection to the one immediately behind it, but the couple of minutes of "padding" that the London train has as it arrives into Sheffield mean that the connection isn't valid at Sheffield? (I know I'll get into trouble for calling it "padding" btw)

I can't be certain at the moment, since the XC services aren't running, so the only things to compare the London trains against are the Northern services (which stop at Dronfield, so are slower) and the Liverpool services (which reverse at Sheffield), but that'd be my guess.

Could also be because journey planners either try to give people a connection at the first suitable place (i.e. they know that passengers who have to change trains would rather do so at the first available opportunity) or that they know that passengers would prefer to change at smaller stations (there were Cross Country adverts a few years ago encouraging people to change trains at Wolverhampton/ Cheltenham etc rather than the scrum of New Street, which must put a few people off. This doesn't explain why Derby doesn't come up as a suggestion though (unless your Leeds service was the ex-Nottingham one, which generally doesn't serve Derby?).
 

alistairlees

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This could be because the London - Sheffield trains (which presumably you are getting from Loughborough) have a few minutes of additional time allocated for the last section of the journey (i.e. Chesterfield to Sheffield) to ensure that they arrive on time. So your train might arrive at Chesterfield with enough time to give a connection to the one immediately behind it, but the couple of minutes of "padding" that the London train has as it arrives into Sheffield mean that the connection isn't valid at Sheffield? (I know I'll get into trouble for calling it "padding" btw)

I can't be certain at the moment, since the XC services aren't running, so the only things to compare the London trains against are the Northern services (which stop at Dronfield, so are slower) and the Liverpool services (which reverse at Sheffield), but that'd be my guess.

Could also be because journey planners either try to give people a connection at the first suitable place (i.e. they know that passengers who have to change trains would rather do so at the first available opportunity) or that they know that passengers would prefer to change at smaller stations (there were Cross Country adverts a few years ago encouraging people to change trains at Wolverhampton/ Cheltenham etc rather than the scrum of New Street, which must put a few people off. This doesn't explain why Derby doesn't come up as a suggestion though (unless your Leeds service was the ex-Nottingham one, which generally doesn't serve Derby?).
Journey planners should obey minimum interchange rules, so your explanation regarding the St Pancras to Sheffield terminators may well be correct. All it takes is adding 1 minute of padding to exceed the minimum interchange time and thus break a connection (either entirely, or forcing it to take place somewhere else).

Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield are all "medium" interchange stations in the data (yes, I know they are different sizes!), though they have different minimum interchange times (6, 5 and 7 minutes respectively).

A journey planner could make you try and interchange at the first opportunity, or at the last opportunity; and it could modify that by making you change at the station with the highest value (as that should have the greatest number of facilities). Personally I think it should make you change at the highest value station possible, that is nearest to your destination (it's always better to get as far as you can). In this case that might be Chesterfield.

I do think some of these values need looking at though - Derby and Sheffield are better places to change at from a facilities point of view than Chesterfield is; though I appreciate Chesterfield will always be on the same platform.

The CrossCountry proposed alternative interchange at one of Wolverhampton, Derby, Leamington Spa and Cheltenham Spa (instead of Birmingham New Street) was not / is not supported in data, and would need to be hardcoded. That said, Wolverhampton is (like Birmingham New Street) a "large" interchange station, so this would most likely work anyway for some journeys, at least in a northbound direction. The other three are all "medium" interchange stations.
 

YorksLad12

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This could be because the London - Sheffield trains (which presumably you are getting from Loughborough) have a few minutes of additional time allocated for the last section of the journey (i.e. Chesterfield to Sheffield) to ensure that they arrive on time. So your train might arrive at Chesterfield with enough time to give a connection to the one immediately behind it, but the couple of minutes of "padding" that the London train has as it arrives into Sheffield mean that the connection isn't valid at Sheffield? (I know I'll get into trouble for calling it "padding" btw)

I can't be certain at the moment, since the XC services aren't running, so the only things to compare the London trains against are the Northern services (which stop at Dronfield, so are slower) and the Liverpool services (which reverse at Sheffield), but that'd be my guess.

From memory (I just about remember train travel): the first time I followed what the planner suggested I buy, and changed at Chesterfield from an EMT to XC service. The second time I did what I wanted, terminated at Sheffield and changed to a Northern semi-fast service. Took a bit longer but knew I'd get a seat on the second leg (it was a Sunday, when reservations are only 'advisory' ;) ).
 
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