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Resignalling on the East Coast/Great Northern route including Moorgate branch

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Class 170101

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Kings Cross 9 and 10 will see quite a bit of use as Moorgate route will be closed at weekends over the summer


However, to carry out this vital work, there will be some temporary service changes for passengers. There will be six weekends of track closures between Finsbury Park and Moorgate this summer as Network Rail teams work to install new equipment. These closures will be in place on the following dates:

  • Saturday, 19 and Sunday, 20 June
  • Saturday, 26 and Sunday, 27 June
  • Saturday, 10 and Sunday, 11 July
  • Saturday, 7 and Sunday, 8 August
  • Saturday, 28, Sunday, 29 and Monday, 30 August
  • Saturday, 4 September and Sunday, 5 September During these closures, trains will be diverted into King’s Cross station.
 
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Mcq

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So is this the end of trip cocks and other ex Northern line era eqpt?
Is this ERTMS and is it the same as was previously tested between Hertford North and Stevenage?
 

Bald Rick

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Yes - the end of tripcocks

Yes - ETCS*, and yes what was tested between Hertford North and Stevenage. Albeit just about every dialect of ETCS has been tested there.

* ETCS, not ERTMS. The former is part fo the latter.
 

Mcq

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Yes - the end of tripcocks

Yes - ETCS*, and yes what was tested between Hertford North and Stevenage. Albeit just about every dialect of ETCS has been tested there.

* ETCS, not ERTMS. The former is part fo the latter.
As ever - many thanks.
Will there still be colour light signals along the route?
 

Roast Veg

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Yes - the end of tripcocks

Yes - ETCS*, and yes what was tested between Hertford North and Stevenage. Albeit just about every dialect of ETCS has been tested there.

* ETCS, not ERTMS. The former is part fo the latter.
ECTS L2 with fixed block widths presumably? L3 would be an interesting exercise in the Moorgate tunnels, but I suppose the frequency is too low to see any benefit.
 

Bald Rick

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ECTS L2 with fixed block widths presumably? L3 would be an interesting exercise in the Moorgate tunnels, but I suppose the frequency is too low to see any benefit.

Yes L2. L3 Is a long way from use on the real railway.
 

edwin_m

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No, they’ll go. As will the signals south of Grantham before too long.
Aren't they keeping them north of Peterborough to avoid having to equip whatever EMR chooses to send towards Norwich or Spalding?
ECTS L2 with fixed block widths presumably? L3 would be an interesting exercise in the Moorgate tunnels, but I suppose the frequency is too low to see any benefit.
L3 still isn't an available technology. Even when it is, there may be a good reason to keep fixed blocks in tunnel sections, to respect rules such as only one train between each ventilation shaft and to ensure that if a train has a problem that might involve evacuation, other trains don't approach closely and find themselves in the same situation.
 

Ianno87

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Aren't they keeping them north of Peterborough to avoid having to equip whatever EMR chooses to send towards Norwich or Spalding?

L3 still isn't an available technology. Even when it is, there may be a good reason to keep fixed blocks in tunnel sections, to respect rules such as only one train between each ventilation shaft and to ensure that if a train has a problem that might involve evacuation, other trains don't approach closely and find themselves in the same situation.

As well as limiting the number of trains between shafts, the capability of L3 is a bit pointless if you're still constrained by only 2 platforms at Moorgate.
 

Bald Rick

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Aren't they keeping them north of Peterborough to avoid having to equip whatever EMR chooses to send towards Norwich or Spalding?

Sorry yes, quite right. Peterborough station and up to Stoke summit will retain signals - for now at least.
 

Failed Unit

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As well as limiting the number of trains between shafts, the capability of L3 is a bit pointless if you're still constrained by only 2 platforms at Moorgate.
A little off topic, but do they release a train from Essex road if one is still stood in Old Street? (or any station if the platform is not vacant at the next station). I know I have waited for a platform at Moorgate but Essex road - Old Street is a long way to evacuate if a train failed on the platform at Old Street.
 

edwin_m

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As well as limiting the number of trains between shafts, the capability of L3 is a bit pointless if you're still constrained by only 2 platforms at Moorgate.
Probably so. You might get slightly quicker clearance after a disruption as you could stack up several trains close together waiting for platforms, but it would be a marginal gain and relies on the unlikely assumption that you're allowed to do that and can deal with evacuating all of them if the first one suffers a failure that prevents it moving and possibly kills the traction supply.
 

59CosG95

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Sorry yes, quite right. Peterborough station and up to Stoke summit will retain signals - for now at least.
ISTR that the Ely enhancements scheme covers right the way up to the LNE/Anglia route boundary, and that Peterborough - Ely ETCS was being looked into as part and parcel of the Digital Railway programme.
That may make it prudent for EMR to perhaps look into fitting ETCS in the future.
But AFAIK the Stamford lines (and beyond to Leicester, Nuneaton etc.) are still going to be conventional. De-semaphoring the route between Syston & Helpston is a larger priority there!
 

Mcq

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No, they’ll go. As will the signals south of Grantham before too long.
So if all the conventional signsls are going, does this mean all freight/diesels and steam (e.g. Tornado) have to be fitted with ECTS - is that do-able?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Anyone know about steam?
The Cambrian solution is to put a bright yellow ETCS-fitted class 37 on the front.
I'm not sure if there have been any steam movements like that in the decade since conversion.
Presumably there will still be a non-ETCS route from London to Peterborough and beyond, from Liverpool St via Ely.
 
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edwin_m

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ISTR that the Ely enhancements scheme covers right the way up to the LNE/Anglia route boundary, and that Peterborough - Ely ETCS was being looked into as part and parcel of the Digital Railway programme.
That may make it prudent for EMR to perhaps look into fitting ETCS in the future.
But AFAIK the Stamford lines (and beyond to Leicester, Nuneaton etc.) are still going to be conventional. De-semaphoring the route between Syston & Helpston is a larger priority there!
There's also some suggestion of ETCS on the MML. Looks like EMR or its successor will need to do something for whichever of these schemes come first if it uses ETCS, which would also avoid keeping signals between Stoke and Grantham when what is now the Doncaster control area is converted at some later date. But I don't think any of EMR's current fleet is ETCS-ready (810s excepted), so someone is probably hoping none of these go ahead before EMR gets some new Regional units.
 

Bald Rick

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There's also some suggestion of ETCS on the MML. Looks like EMR or its successor will need to do something for whichever of these schemes come first if it uses ETCS, which would also avoid keeping signals between Stoke and Grantham when what is now the Doncaster control area is converted at some later date. But I don't think any of EMR's current fleet is ETCS-ready (810s excepted), so someone is probably hoping none of these go ahead before EMR gets some new Regional units.

AIUI the ETCS on the MML will be the area covered by West Hampstead ‘box, as most of that is 40 years old, as the rest is relatively new. Given that WH will be the exclusive territory of Class 700s and Class 820s (both fitted ETCS from new) and Class 360s / Class 180s (both small fleets, easily fittable), plus th freight I course (being done already), I can’t see it being a problem in the timescales.
 

Class 170101

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AIUI the ETCS on the MML will be the area covered by West Hampstead ‘box, as most of that is 40 years old, as the rest is relatively new. Given that WH will be the exclusive territory of Class 700s and Class 820s (both fitted ETCS from new) and Class 360s / Class 180s (both small fleets, easily fittable), plus th freight I course (being done already), I can’t see it being a problem in the timescales.
I thought EMR were getting rid of the Class 180s when the Class 810s (820s posted above) arrived?
 

SynthD

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Will this make the two lines of the Hertford North branch equal? Iiuc the southbound line was a testing ground.
 

swt_passenger

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Will this make the two lines of the Hertford North branch equal? Iiuc the southbound line was a testing ground.
It was the northbound/down line that was set up for testing, the southbound/up was made conventional bi-directional to allow single line operation while testing was underway. But it’s likely the test ETCS installation is not quite the same as the line would ordinarily need, so it might get simplified for normal use.
 

D365

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So if all the conventional signsls are going, does this mean all freight/diesels and steam (e.g. Tornado) have to be fitted with ECTS - is that do-able?

All freight locos are going to be fitted. Don’t know about steam.

Anyone know about steam?

As per Bald Rick’s post, Siemens have a contract with Network Rail to fit ”ETCS onboard” to the vast majority of mainline registered diesel and electric locos. Contracts for the fitment of ETCS to charter locomotives are currently being finalised, but that is as much as I can safely say.
 

43066

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But I don't think any of EMR's current fleet is ETCS-ready (810s excepted)

Not quite sure what you meant here, but 810s aren’t part of EMR’s current fleet. They’re still a couple of years away.
 

Roast Veg

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As per Bald Rick’s post, Siemens have a contract with Network Rail to fit ”ETCS onboard” to the vast majority of mainline registered diesel and electric locos. Contracts for the fitment of ETCS to charter locomotives are currently being finalised, but that is as much as I can safely say.
That implies that the charter operators don't have to foot the bill themselves, and that nr are paying for it. I'd want my loco mainline registered asap!
 

Aictos

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So will the changeover from conventional signalling to ETCS take place at Drayton Park (As they have to stop there anyway to change power supply) or will they do it at Finsbury Park itself?
 

Failed Unit

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Will they be able to run trains wrong direction once it is fitted.

just thinking of easier to evacuate. Failed unit at Essex Road. No problem. Reverse back to next station to empty your train. Of course no good if another train is behind but then if you can keep going wrong direction until the line is clear.
 

D365

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That implies that the charter operators don't have to foot the bill themselves, and that nr are paying for it. I'd want my loco mainline registered asap!
I’m not involved with the contracts directly so I can’t give a definite answer. But I would assume that the locomotive owners make specific arrangements with Network Rail. For example, there’s a number of ”special edition” Class 37s which need specific contractual arrangements due to unique structural and electrical modifications.
 
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