Restriction code NU

[transmanche]

Having read section 1.4 of the draft Fares & Ticketing Guide, I think I know the answer - but just asking to be certain.

I want to travel from A-B with a friend. No Duo ticket is available for a journey A-B, but there is one for a journey A-C, which involves changing at B. And (of course) the Duo ticket A-C is cheaper than two returns for A-B.

The Duo ticket for A-C carries restriction code NU. NRE doesn't mention any BoJ restrictions for code NU. But BRfares.com says that "Break of journey is only permitted for connectional purposes on the outward journey and at anytime on the return journey.

So is BRfares.com correct? And if so, does this mean I cannot stop the journey short at B? Or because NRE is silent on BoJ, does this mean that I can assume there are no restrictions and take a printout as 'proof'?

Thoughts welcome!

 

[soil]

BoJ is allowed:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/FNW_NU.pdf

 

[bb21]

When there is contradicting information, always use the NRE version. brfares are not an official source.

 

[transmanche]

When there is contradicting information, always use the NRE version. brfares are not an official source.

Cheers! Thank you - and I shall take a printout of the NRE page 'just in case'.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Duos do not allow break of journey

 

[jkdd77]

The general conditions on the NRE and the Northern website relating to 'Duos' are both silent on whether BoJ is permitted:
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ticketterms/show?&ticketTypeCode=FNW
http://www.northernrail.org/tickets/Duo+tickets
and, as already made clear, the restriction code does not prohibit it.

Furthermore, if I attempt to purchase a Duo from the Northern Rail website, no restriction on BoJ is mentioned at any point, although I am referred to both: http://www.northernrail.org/travel/tickets/northern-rail-terms-and-conditions (which is a generic page with no mention of BoJ restrictions), and to the NRCoC.

Therefore, since the restriction on BoJ, if any, is not made clear at the time of purchase as expressly required by the plain wording of NRCoC Condition 16, (and as further required by the section "Your rights" in the preamble of the NRCoC"), it is my belief that BoJ is permitted.

 

[barrykas]

The only mention I can find of the BoJ restriction is in the section header for Duo tickets in The Manual. There's no mention in the individual restriction texts, nor on any public website that I can see.

 

[Goatboy]

I cannot see how BOJ restrictions can be enforced if the customer is not informed at any point during the purchase process that there are restrictions in place.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes indeed. It is my understanding that the restriction text can be used to disallow break of journey, on the outward portion only, for ticket types that normally allow it, specifically only Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak. But if the ticket type does not normally allow it and there are no exceptions, as in the case of Northern Duo tickets, then there is no need for the restriction text to mention anything related to Break of Journey.

It looks to be an oversight on the part of National Rail Enquiries that it if it starts putting up detailed restriction text without the accompanying more general information (including break of journey availability) that applies to each ticket type, people will understandably (and rightly, based on the published information) start coming to these sorts of conclusions.

 

[yorkie]

I cannot see how BOJ restrictions can be enforced if the customer is not informed at any point during the purchase process that there are restrictions in place.

Absolutely, and NRCoC makes it very clear that break of journey IS allowed except where it is made clear that it isn't.

 

[bb21]

I doubt that BoJ's are enforceable or enforced on Duo tickets.

I have personally witnessed on several occasions Northern guards selling Duo tickets to passengers who request tickets on flows which do not have Duo fares and telling them to start/stop short.

 

[transmanche]

As an aside, I bought a Duo ticket recently (for a different journey) and it was issued as one ticket for both passengers (i.e. it stated TWO under Adults on the ticket). So the ticket barrier rejected it (i tried it just for fun!). And the guard seemed surprised, asking for a second look and commenting "oh it's for two is it?"

I've had GroupSave tickets before where every passenger is issued their own ticket. Is it normal for Duo tickets to be issued as just one ticket (in each direction)?

 

[bb21]

I've had GroupSave tickets before where every passenger is issued their own ticket. Is it normal for Duo tickets to be issued as just one ticket (in each direction)?

I believe that a Duo fare is normally issued on four coupons - two each for both outward and return. The total price is displayed on one of the tickets, while the other is nil-priced.

 

[jkdd77]

The only mention I can find of the BoJ restriction is in the section header for Duo tickets in The Manual. There's no mention in the individual restriction texts, nor on any public website that I can see.

Out of curiousity, does the Manual purport to disallow BoJ on both legs, or merely on the outward leg (as apparently used to be the case, if the 'General Conditions' section on the brfares website is to be believed)?

Interesting, if one attempts to purchase a Duo ticket online, the Northern Rail website describes the ticket as a "Std Class Off-Peak Return" at the "My Basket" stage, which would further lead the passenger to believe that BoJ is permitted.

As an aside, there are other examples of (Super) Off-Peak tickets with no BoJ restriction in the restriction code, yet the relevant TOC's website claims that BoJ is prohibited (on both legs, in the case of return tickets, notwithstanding NRE's claim that BoJ is always permitted on the return leg of such tickets).

 

[barrykas]

Out of curiousity, does the Manual purport to disallow BoJ on both legs, or merely on the outward leg (as apparently used to be the case, if the 'General Conditions' section on the brfares website is to be believed)?

Gets a one liner near the top of the page: "Break of journey is only permitted for connectional purposes on the outward journey and at anytime on the return journey."

Interesting, if one attempts to purchase a Duo ticket online, the Northern Rail website describes the ticket as a "Std Class Off-Peak Return" at the "My Basket" stage, which would further lead the passenger to believe that BoJ is permitted.

WebTIS correctly identifies it as a Northern Duo and has the following to say wrt BoJ: "A break of journey is allowed on both portions of the ticket, as described in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."

So $DEITY only knows whether you can break your journey or not!

As an aside, there are other examples of (Super) Off-Peak tickets with no BoJ restriction in the restriction code, yet the relevant TOC's website claims that BoJ is prohibited (on both legs, in the case of return tickets, notwithstanding NRE's claim that BoJ is always permitted on the return leg of such tickets).

You'll be pleased to know that LM have changed their restriction text now...It now says "Normal break of journey rules apply." for the return portions of both the Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak.

 

[Goatboy]

Gets a one liner near the top of the page: "Break of journey is only permitted for connectional purposes on the outward journey and at anytime on the return journey."

Seems odd - surely changing trains isn't breaking journey, why would you ever need a BoJ for 'connectional purposes'?

 

[calc7]

Seems odd - surely changing trains isn't breaking journey, why would you ever need a BoJ for 'connectional purposes'?

I fear you've opened the can of semantic worms again!

 

[jkdd77]

Gets a one liner near the top of the page: "Break of journey is only permitted for connectional purposes on the outward journey and at anytime on the return journey."

WebTIS correctly identifies it as a Northern Duo and has the following to say wrt BoJ: "A break of journey is allowed on both portions of the ticket, as described in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage."

So $DEITY only knows whether you can break your journey or not!

You'll be pleased to know that LM have changed their restriction text now...It now says "Normal break of journey rules apply." for the return portions of both the Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak.

I wasn't thinking of LM, but another operator, which I would prefer not to name on the open forum, for fear that it would simply add the relevant wording to the applicable restriction codes to remove any doubt.

Thanks for the information- if the Webtis sites expressly state that BoJ is permitted, then I am even more convinced that any restriction cannot form part of the contract to travel for tickets purchased from this source, and, accordingly, two passengers travelling together can validly break their outward journey, particularly given the wording of NRCoC 16.

 

[Oscar]

I believe that a Duo fare is normally issued on four coupons - two each for both outward and return. The total price is displayed on one of the tickets, while the other is nil-priced.

I have seen Duos issued by Avantix Mobile (onboard) on four coupons and Duos issued by Shere Fast Ticket (used by East Coast) and an East Coast ticket office which uses Tribute issued on two coupons.

 

[transmanche]

As an aside, I bought a Duo ticket recently (for a different journey) and it was issued as one ticket for both passengers (i.e. it stated TWO under Adults on the ticket). So the ticket barrier rejected it (i tried it just for fun!). And the guard seemed surprised, asking for a second look and commenting "oh it's for two is it?"

I've had GroupSave tickets before where every passenger is issued their own ticket. Is it normal for Duo tickets to be issued as just one ticket (in each direction)?

Just for reference; this is the outward portion of the ticket I bought, showing TWO adults. (FWIW, purchased from an East Cost TVM.)

 

[barrykas]

I have seen Duos issued by Avantix Mobile (onboard) on four coupons and Duos issued by Shere Fast Ticket and a ticket office which uses Tribute issued on two coupons.

Depends on how the TIS is programmed. Just popped a sample journey into FasTIS and it would issue it as four coupons, two marked at zero fare, the other two at full fare.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Bullfield WEst]

Seems odd - surely changing trains isn't breaking journey, why would you ever need a BoJ for 'connectional purposes'?

At Wigan? Northwestern to Wallgate?

 

[clagmonster]

At Wigan? Northwestern to Wallgate?

Not a break of journey, the Conditions of Carriage state:
"For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf

 

[IanXC]

Seems odd - surely changing trains isn't breaking journey, why would you ever need a BoJ for 'connectional purposes'?

I sometimes need a pub outside the station while waiting for a connection. I wonder if that counts as 'for connectional purposes'