Restriction Code P7

[Hapana]

Hello, I was wondering if anybody could help me - and I know that there are many ticketing experts, so I am hopeful

I travel often, yet erratically from Cookham to London, and need to take different trains on different days.

Looking at my off peak tickets they always have a Restriction Code "P7". Looking this up on the NRE site suggests that any train after 0840 from Cookham would be an off peak train.

This would mean that the 0849 arriving 0930 is an off peak train.

However every automated booking engine that I look at seems to show that the 0849 is a peak train, and the first off peak train is 0927, arriving Paddington at 1008.

Could any of the experts here tell me:

1) Is the 0849 a Peak train or an Off Peak Train?
2) If it is off peak will the ticket office staff know this - or will their system default to "Peak"?
3) If it really is Off Peak do I have a claim against GWR for over charging me every time that I have paid a peak fare for an off peak train due to the poor public information?

Many thanks in advance

 

[Quaver]

From What i can see, the 0849 arriving at 0930 is off peak, using the 0909 connection at Maidenhead,

However you can use the 0849 from Cookham to Maidenhead, and then use the 0921 Maidenhead to London - this is an off peak train.

 

[Hapana]

From What i can see, the 0849 arriving at 0930 is off peak, using the 0909 connection at Maidenhead,

However you can use the 0849 from Cookham to Maidenhead, and then use the 0921 Maidenhead to London - this is an off peak train.

Thank you Quaver. I assume that you mean the 0909 from MAI arriving PAD at 0930 is Peak.

What I do not understand is why when I read the restriction for P7 it would appear to be allowed:

By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 10:00. The following exceptions apply:  Valid for travel from Marlow at or later than 08:30  Valid for travel from Bourne End, Cookham and Furze Platt at or later than 08:40  Valid for travel from all stations on the 08:34 Reading to Gatwick Airport service

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The general rule for the outbound portion of a P7-restricted ticket is that it is not valid to arrive into London Paddington before 09:59. However, one of the exceptions is coming from the Marlow/Bourne End branch, in that you may take any train after 08:40 - which means you can get into Paddington at 09:30.

The way that the text of the restrictions is encoded in a computer-readable format is such that it lists various stations, and the times during which passengers may not arrive and/or depart from said stations.

The computer encoded version of P7 contains a general 'ban' on arriving into Paddington from 04:30-09:58, and thus in the absence of anything else, any itinerary involving an arrival into Paddington during this time may not be offered in conjunction with a P7-restricted ticket by specification-compliant online journey planners.

To implement the Bourne End branch exception, GWR have encoded an exception in the electronic version of P7. This states that the usual restrictions do not apply when travelling on the "GW2941" service - the 08:36 Marlow to Bourne End service. However, they have neglected to also apply the exemption to the "GW2943" service, the 08:46 Bourne End to Maidenhead service, or the required connecting "GW2394" 08:08 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington service. Thus the electronic version of P7 does not contain the required exceptions in order to take advantage of the text's offered 08:40 Bourne End exception.

So, they have actually failed to implement the exception written in the text version. To answer your questions in order:

1) The concept of a "peak train" or an "off-peak train" is very unhelpful (and it is a myth perpetuated by a number of train companies and posters/FAQs). Whether or not you may take a train with an Off-Peak ticket depends entirely on the restriction code, as well as in some cases your journey's origin and destination stations. As an example of why it is a problematic concept, consider the following. Someone starting late at Maidenhead on a Bourne End/Cookham etc. to Paddington Off-Peak Day Return may not take the 09:09 service to Paddington. The same passenger with the same ticket instead starting late at Furze Platt (a mile further north) can take the 09:09 service from Maidenhead! But if you are travelling from Cookham, you can take the 08:49 service on a P7-restricted ticket.

2) If the staff at the ticket office you buy your ticket from read the restriction's text, they will know that you can take the 08:49 service on a P7-restricted ticket. If they rely on an automated journey planner, or rely on some system that offers 'compatible' itineraries for a given ticket, they may (wrongly) claim that you cannot take the 08:49 service.

3) I would very much like the answer to this to be yes. However, I highly doubt that the mismatch between the restriction code's text, and its electronic implementation, is intentional. It seems more likely to be an (honest) error. If you point it out (and GWR may become aware of it thanks to this thread) then it may eventually be fixed. The prospect of a refund for the difference seems slim, but it is something I would be happy to help affected passengers 'fight' for - it is not right that passengers should be charged more than intended due to a train company's error.

I will definitely be following this thread with interest!

 

[Quaver]

Thank you Quaver. I assume that you mean the 0909 from MAI arriving PAD at 0930 is Peak.

What I do not understand is why when I read the restriction for P7 it would appear to be allowed:

By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 10:00. The following exceptions apply:  Valid for travel from Marlow at or later than 08:30  Valid for travel from Bourne End, Cookham and Furze Platt at or later than 08:40  Valid for travel from all stations on the 08:34 Reading to Gatwick Airport service

Hi Hapana,

You would be right good sir, sorry for my confusion, as for the restriction code, I can't answer that, but I am sure someone much more knowledgeable about the restriction codes (and possibly NRE) will be along and can advise that.

 

[RJ]

Examination of old FGW timetables suggests that it was always allowed to use an Off Peak ticket on a train around that time as far as Maidenhead, but the arrival time at Paddington was still restricted to after 09:59.

It would seem it is permitted to use an Off Peak ticket on the 08:49 train but you can't use it on a train that arrives into Paddington before 09:58.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Examination of old FGW timetables suggests that it was always allowed to use an Off Peak ticket on a train around that time as far as Maidenhead, but the arrival time at Paddington was still restricted to after 09:59.

It would seem it is permitted to use an Off Peak ticket on the 08:49 train but you can't use it on a train that arrives into Paddington before 09:58.

I think the intent of the restriction code is clear enough - that you can depart Bourne End branch stations at 08:40 or later, even if this means arriving into Paddington before 09:59.

 

[Paul Kelly]

However, one of the exceptions is coming from the Marlow/Bourne End branch, in that you may take any train after 08:40

It's not an exception - it's an additional restriction imposed on trains that don't have an arrival time in London. You may not depart Cookham before 08:40, even if the train you're travelling on does not arrive at Paddington before 09:58 (e.g. because it doesn't go anywhere near London). The version of the restriction code on BRfares.com seems to have an error in drafting, with the word except being replaced by the word and in the NRE version.

(I plan to have BR Fares display the NRE version of the restriction text in the medium term future, since it now appears to be the official version and the source used by BR Fares increasingly poorly maintained.)

 

[Paul Kelly]

By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 10:00. The following exceptions apply:  Valid for travel from Marlow at or later than 08:30  Valid for travel from Bourne End, Cookham and Furze Platt at or later than 08:40  Valid for travel from all stations on the 08:34 Reading to Gatwick Airport service

I am getting quite confused! This seems to be a different wording again. Can you give a link as to where you're reading this, please? It doesn't seem to be what's shown at www.nre.co.uk/P7

 

[sheff1]

The version of the restriction code on BRfares.com seems to have an error in drafting, with the word except being replaced by the word and in the NRE version.

The wording on NRE changed w.e.f. 2 Jan 2018. BRfares still uses the previous wording.

 

[RJ]

I think this is a question for FGW customer services to raise with their retail management department. As it is, that restriction isn't written clearly enough to be unambiguous and they've removed this information from their timetables.

 

[Hapana]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/CDR_P7.pdf

 

[Paul Kelly]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/CDR_P7.pdf

Fascinating. That contains the same wording about the times from the Bourne End branch being an "exception" as the text on BR Fares does - it looks very out of date though, with the mention of Christmas 2013 at the bottom. Really poor show on NRE's part (but not surprising) to have such inconsistency.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Fascinating. That contains the same wording about the times from the Bourne End branch being an "exception" as the text on BR Fares does - it looks very out of date though, with the mention of Christmas 2013 at the bottom. Really poor show on NRE's part (but not surprising) to have such inconsistency.

I've had a think about this one - without the 08:40 "exception" then according to the text of P7 you would be free to use an Off-Peak ticket on any train on the Bourne End branch, as the restriction is only on trains arriving into London Terminals or Kensington (Olympia). That would lean towards the intention of 'except:' being the implementation of peak time restrictions on the branch, up to 08:40.

However, something that strongly counters this is the fact that, in the electronic data, there are no blanket time restrictions on departing or arriving from/to any of the Bourne End branch stations, whilst the GW2941 service is excepted from time restrictions. This points more towards a half-baked, ineffective attempt to override the London Terminals peak time restrictions for passengers from that branch.

 

[RJ]

Fascinating. That contains the same wording about the times from the Bourne End branch being an "exception" as the text on BR Fares does - it looks very out of date though, with the mention of Christmas 2013 at the bottom. Really poor show on NRE's part (but not surprising) to have such inconsistency.

It's a very old, out of date version of the restriction.

The version that's advertised to the public is www.nationalrail.co.uk/P7

 

[OwlMan]

To find the official version of ticket restrictions or the terms & conditions of a ticket type use the National rail Ticket & Validity Finder.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/TicketAndValidityFinder.aspx

 

[island]

The intent is clear to me to allow passengers from the Marlow branch to use an earlier service than those on the mainline. As printed, passengers from Marlow itself don’t benefit – the first permitted train, the 09:12, connects at Maidenhead with a train arriving at Paddington at 10:08 – but the electronic implementation permits them to use the 08:36 to Bourne End, which the printed words do not!

From Bourne End the printed wording enables use of the 08:46 to Maidenhead which can have you in Paddington for 09:30, but the electronic implementation bars the 09:09 Maidenhead to Paddington.

I don’t think this can be fixed without creating a new restriction code for Furze Platt, Cookham, Bourne End and Marlow tickets specifically. I suppose they could migrate them to W5 (not valid before 08:30) as none of the barred evening peak trains on P7 call at Maidenhead anyway, but that then creates issues with starting short down the line.

It's not an exception - it's an additional restriction imposed on trains that don't have an arrival time in London. You may not depart Cookham before 08:40, even if the train you're travelling on does not arrive at Paddington before 09:58 (e.g. because it doesn't go anywhere near London). The version of the restriction code on BRfares.com seems to have an error in drafting, with the word except being replaced by the word and in the NRE version.

I don’t think this is the right interpretation. Off-peak tickets within the Marlow branch and from the Marlow branch to Twyford and beyond carry a W4 restriction (no travel before 08:45 M-F), so someone with a P7 ticket is necessarily using a train which takes them towards London.

P7 also provides some useless easements for the Henley branch.

~~~~~~
A postscript: it has taken a great deal of analysis from several of the forum’s experts to get to this point. What hope have the average passenger or staff member?

 

[Hapana]

Thank you Island - I am the confused passenger trying to work out what ticket I should use. Is it the forum's collective view, that I could use the the P7 restriction on the 0846 ex Bourne End to arrive Paddington at 0930? And do we think that it is the intent of the restriction to allow that, or just poor drafting? The reason being is that the ticket office staff (who are looking at the electronic records) are saying that one can catch the 0846, but that you must wait on the platform at Maidenhead until the 0921, to arrive Paddington at 1002.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thank you Island - I am the confused passenger trying to work out what ticket I should use. Is it the forum's collective view, that I could use the the P7 restriction on the 0846 ex Bourne End to arrive Paddington at 0930? And do we think that it is the intent of the restriction to allow that, or just poor drafting? The reason being is that the ticket office staff (who are looking at the electronic records) are saying that one can catch the 0846, but that you must wait on the platform at Maidenhead until the 0921, to arrive Paddington at 1002.

I think the intention is quite clearly to let you get to Paddington at 09:30 rather than making you wait at Maidenhead. This is evidenced, IMO, by the way they have put the restriction into the electronic data.

If you get it 'wrong' (and use an Off-Peak ticket on a service that it's allegedly not valid on), the worst that can happen is that you have to pay the excess to the Anytime fare. If you are required to do this, it is evidence of a potential breach of contract and you could contact GWR to obtain a refund.

 

[furlong]

I wouldn't draw too much attention to this or it might simply disappear in the next fares round!

Firstly, once you've been allowed to begin your journey at a certain time it would be perverse not to allow you to take the first available connection at each interchange and arrive a bit earlier than the general restriction allows. (And otherwise what's the point of listing the exception?)

Exceptions like these generally come about because the gap to the next train is so great that you'd arrive long after the general restriction has expired. I expect this is a particular case where the timetable changed (extra Marlow trains in the peak). Even in a 2009 timetable I've just looked at (presumably aligned with the 8.30 version of the restriction), if you couldn't catch the 08.37 from Marlow you wouldn't reach Paddington until 11.16 - long after 10am. But today, if you miss the 08.36, you still arrive at 10.08.