Restriction code US

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Max, 10 Apr 2015.

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  1. Max

    Max Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Does this mean I can use a ticket with this restriction code from Vauxhall at 0927, even though the train originated at Waterloo before 0930?
     
  2. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    Logically speaking, no. The Waterloo restriction as given forbids one set of trains, and the Vauxhall set forbids another set of trains. There's no need for the sets to match, or for one to be the subset of the other.

    If the restrictions were phrased in the affirmative (e.g. Valid after 09:05) then there would be a contradiction, and you may be able to argue that the passenger gets the best possible interpretation. But that's not the case.
     
  3. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    There is no other sensible interpretation.

    It's not worded well, but that's not untypical ;)
     
  4. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    In my view, the restriction code has been written with the intention that, if you are using Vauxhall rather than Waterloo, you can use a train from 0905 rather than from 0930, because not all trains from Waterloo are trains from Vauxhall. Someone has just forgotten the slightly obvious fact that all trains from Vauxhall are indeed trains from Waterloo!

    In practice, if the ticket is rejected at the Vauxhall gateline, you will probably be told it is not valid until 0930, just like all other off-peak tickets :p
     
  5. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    BRfares is wrong.

    The correct version of the restriction code is at NRE : http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64160.aspx

    As can be seen, the ticket is valid from Waterloo at and after 09:00, subject to certain easements.

    For what it is worth, I believe that, where restrictions reference a specific station, and both ticket and journey start from that station, generally speaking, those restrictions and those restrictions only would apply, unless the wording of the restriction code expressly states to the contrary. For example, a passenger may board a weekday 'evening peak' train at Milton Keynes with a '9I' Off-Peak ticket, notwithstanding that the same train would be barred for passengers wishing to board at London Euston or Watford Junction. Indeed, imposing evening peak restrictions from the origin station of the train on regulated SVRs for journeys commencing outside of 'London stations' may violate fares regulation, albeit that few, if any SVRs with restriction code US would qualify, since few SVRs, as distinct from Network Awaybreaks, existed in 2002 for journeys wholly in the Network Southeast region.

    It seems to me that, even were the BRfares version correct, the plain intent would be for journeys from Vauxhall to be permitted at or after 09:05, and that in any case a passenger ought to be entitled to benefit from any ambiguity.
     
    Last edited: 11 Apr 2015
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    I checked that.

    I thought that there was something not quite right, but couldn't tell what given how bloomin long the two restriction columns are!
     
  7. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    This is slightly off-topic, but does anyone else spot the breach of fares regulation by Virgin in imposing evening peak restrictions on regulated 9I/ 2C SVRs from Watford Junction from 14:38, rather than from 15:00?

    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64133.aspx
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64078.aspx

    This particularly affects passengers wishing to travel from Watford Junction on the 14:41 to Milton Keynes to connect with Virgin services to further afield.

    This isn't the first time Virgin have violated fares regulation; they also previously imposed restrictions on Off-Peak ticket from Milton Keynes Central despite this not being a 'London station' for the purposes of fares regulation.

    Feel free to join me in complaining.
     
  8. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    Were the brfares version correct I'd have no doubt that krus_aragon's interpretation is correct.
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Now try and search for a LM journey - their restrictions (certainly the morning SSR ones) *are* implemented exactly how you say they can't be - based on the time the train leaves *Euston*. The wording says "depart London or any other station before..." and they have implemented it (and will say if you ask them) based on the idea that if the train has ANY stop in the barred time, wherever it is, it is barred throughout for tickets with that restriction code.
     
  10. jkdd77

    jkdd77 Member

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    I didn't say it was absolutely prohibited to restrict a (Super) Off-Peak ticket based on the origin or destination station of the train, merely that it would need to be made absolutely clear in the wording of the restriction code that this is the case.

    Mentioning specific intermediate stations, with their own specific time restrictions, would lead to the logical conclusion that journeys from that intermediate station with tickets from that intermediate station are intended to take the stated restrictions from that station, and not to take additional restrictions unless such additional restrictions are made absolutely clear.

    For example, passengers with 'Q8' SVRs could use them from Salisbury after 08:50 on weekdays, notwithstanding that the train in question departed Warminster before that time.

    In the case of London Midland 'LF' OPRs, which are not regulated SVRs, the wording of the restriction code is indeed as you mention for the northbound leg, and, in my view, is sufficiently clear to be enforceable.
     
  11. Max

    Max Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Thanks for clarifying folks! I was a bit confused as work had booked a ticket with this restriction code for me on the 0920 Waterloo-Woking service and I was initially quite surprised it was valid before 0930. Seems like the Vauxhall thing was a bit of a red herring.
     
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