(Retired safeguarded) Staff travel restrictions

[AndrewE]

After a dispute with a member of on-train staff I cross-checked the restrictions (link half-way down here: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/rst/where-can-i-go.html#WhereCanIGoSG) and found that they had sneaked out a version 2 of the Winter restrictions, although strangely it is dated before its actual commencement.

Has anyone got version 1 saved, or alternateively a copy of the summer 2021 please?
Thanks
A

 

[Mag_seven]

After a dispute with a member of on-train staff

What was the dispute?

 

[AndrewE]

I wasn't going to describe it in public as a) it turned out that she was right (possibly, in certain conditions)
b) I have made a formal compaint about her approach and attutude throughout and
c) stuff travels. bad news spreads.

I was amazed afterwards to see a restriction that she could have applied (but not in the actual circumstances, I think) and to find that it had apppeared without me realising. I am very careful about this as travel concessions are very valuable to us.

They are actually deferred wages as we had a lower salary throughout our work because they were part of the reward, including continuing into retirement when you would have chance to make the most of them.

 

[SargeNpton]

Is staff travel a deferred wage, or is it a taxable benefit?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is staff travel a deferred wage, or is it a taxable benefit?

Staff travel for active staff will be a benefit in kind. For retired staff, that's a deferred wage (or at least a deferred benefit) in the same way that any other part of the pension package is.

 

[AndrewE]

Is staff travel a deferred wage, or is it a taxable benefit?

Both. If your (final privatised) employer doesn't actually run trains then when you retire they pay a lump sum for it to continue - and the next year you have to pay tax on all that amount.
It is deferred wages because the salary was lower as a consequence of the concession being given. In the late 70's there was a lot of unrest about the low pay so there was a comparability study. The civil service had 4 clerical grades, the same as the railway at that time, and we were told that it was appropriate that the salaries were identical because they had a non-contributory pension and we had our travel concessions. Which do you think gives a higher return?
(Pensions continued to be paid during the Covid lockdowns, we were forbidden to travel!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Both. If your (final privatised) employer doesn't actually run trains then when you retire they pay a lump sum for it to continue - and the next year you have to pay tax on all that amount.
It is deferred wages because the salary was lower as a consequence of the concession being given. In the late 70's there was a lot of unrest about the low pay so there was a comparability study. The civil service had 4 clerical grades, the same as the railway at that time, and we were told that it was appropriate that the salaries were identical because they had a non-contributory pension and we had our travel concessions. Which do you think gives a higher return?
(Pensions continued to be paid during the Covid lockdowns, we were forbidden to travel!)

Aren't civil service pensions only index linked? Given the "inflation busting" fares rises in recent years that must make retired staff rail travel way better value than a pension

But seriously - I totally agree with your point about them being deferred wages etc

 

[Wallsendmag]

Aren't civil service pensions only index linked? Given the "inflation busting" fares rises in recent years that must make retired staff rail travel way better value than a pension

But seriously - I totally agree with your point about them being deferred wages etc

Not to mention no pay rises for several years.

 

[6Gman]

I wasn't going to describe it in public as a) it turned out that she was right (possibly, in certain conditions)
b) I have made a formal compaint about her approach and attutude throughout and
c) stuff travels. bad news spreads.

I was amazed afterwards to see a restriction that she could have applied (but not in the actual circumstances, I think) and to find that it had apppeared without me realising. I am very careful about this as travel concessions are very valuable to us.

They are actually deferred wages as we had a lower salary throughout our work because they were part of the reward, including continuing into retirement when you would have chance to make the most of them.

Could you give us at least a clue as to the area that has changed so we can be prepared?

 

[greyman42]

I wasn't going to describe it in public as a) it turned out that she was right (possibly, in certain conditions)
b) I have made a formal compaint about her approach and attutude throughout and
c) stuff travels. bad news spreads.

I was amazed afterwards to see a restriction that she could have applied (but not in the actual circumstances, I think) and to find that it had apppeared without me realising. I am very careful about this as travel concessions are very valuable to us.

I can't think how describing the issue would cause a problem. The reason i would like to know what the issue was is so that others do not fall into the same "trap".

 

[SargeNpton]

I can't think how describing the issue would cause a problem. The reason i would like to know what the issue was is so that others do not fall into the same "trap".

The solution is, probably, to check the RSTL website each time you travel - to make sure that you have the latest restrictions list. Especially as timetables are changing so frequently at the moment.

 

[reb0118]

Something that has changed is that the £2 flat fare for up to four children accompanying a safeguarded retired staff travel card holder (who is eligible for but does not need to hold a senior railcard) has now increased to £4.

The poor lass at Linlithgow BO had to shut the security blind due to the backlash the other day.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The solution is, probably, to check the RSTL website each time you travel - to make sure that you have the latest restrictions list. Especially as timetables are changing so frequently at the moment.

That’s exactly what the RSTL site says:


These restrictions remain in force as outlined in this document until a subsequent version is published on the Rail Staff Travel website.
The staff travel restrictions may be updated as the national or local travel situation evolves.
Holders of Rail Staff Travel facilities must ensure they check for the latest version of these Staff Travel restrictions before attempting any journey using their facilities.

 

[185]

The poor lass at Linlithgow BO had to shut the security blind due to the backlash the other day.

Like most I'm very easygoing towards all staff, retired or not - but any travelling staff, retired or not who behaves like that towards frontline staff who are just doing their job - not only deserves reporting, but deserves permanent loss of passes.

 

[Haywain]

(who is eligible for but does not need to hold a senior railcard)

What's the relevance of that?

The poor lass at Linlithgow BO had to shut the security blind due to the backlash the other day.

The person who caused that should be losing their travel facilities completely.

 

[reb0118]

Most staff members (retired or otherwise) are a joy to deal with but there are always exceptions. Everyone knows at least one colleague who opens their mouth prior to engaging their brain.

Re. the requirement to to eligible for a senior railcard but not necessarily hold one. I think that is just a convoluted way of saying one needs to be 60+.

 

[Haywain]

Most staff members (retired or otherwise) are a joy to deal with but there are always exceptions. Everyone knows at least one colleague who opens their mouth prior to engaging their brain.

And I think everybody would accept that occasionally people get upset and swear, but if it is so bad that the staff member feels they need to close a security shutter that is a whole different level.

 

[AndrewE]

I can't think how describing the issue would cause a problem. The reason i would like to know what the issue was is so that others do not fall into the same "trap".

Avanti have added a sting in the tail: despite saying

"Retired & other TOC First Class Pass & Status Pass holders may partake of complimentary non-alcoholic beverages, but not food" and
"Standard Premium accommodation is ...not available to holders of any Staff Travel Facilities. First Class accommodation remains available to holders of First Class staff travel facilities"
They have also added
"Due to capacity constraints / social distancing, the onboard capacity for an Avanti First Class experience will be limited, whilst fare paying customers will be given priority. If asked to sit in Standard Premium, then tea, coffee and soft drinks will be available via the onboard shop at a discounted price."

So I refused to be publicly thrown out of the first class coach, and the stewardess couldn't justify why I now wasn't allowed to be there! I don't know when this camein, or why we weren't notified of restrictons version 2. Are we really expected to re-visit the restruction circular before every journey? Could the same apply to a public fare?

 

[WesternLancer]

So I refused to be publicly thrown out of the first class coach, and the stewardess couldn't justify why I now wasn't allowed to be there!

Wouldn't the reason have been that as there is now less real 1st class seating, a walk up 1st class paying passenger could have got on at any stop on the route and needed a seat - and add on social distancing on top they want to actively reduce occupancy to start with. Are some pendolinos now basically down to 1 real 1st class coach - the end one? (apols if I am mistaken about that)

 

[Haywain]

Avanti have added a sting in the tail: despite saying

"Retired & other TOC First Class Pass & Status Pass holders may partake of complimentary non-alcoholic beverages, but not food" and
"Standard Premium accommodation is ...not available to holders of any Staff Travel Facilities. First Class accommodation remains available to holders of First Class staff travel facilities"
They have also added
"Due to capacity constraints / social distancing, the onboard capacity for an Avanti First Class experience will be limited, whilst fare paying customers will be given priority. If asked to sit in Standard Premium, then tea, coffee and soft drinks will be available via the onboard shop at a discounted price."

So I refused to be publicly thrown out of the first class coach, and the stewardess couldn't justify why I now wasn't allowed to be there! I don't know when this camein, or why we weren't notified of restrictons version

Do you hold First Class travel facilities? As I read that, it is saying that holders of First Class travel facilities may be asked to sit in Standard Premium but otherwise sitting in Standard Premium is not permitted.

2. Are we really expected to re-visit the restruction circular before every journey?

Yes, as clearly stated on the RSTL website.

 

[306024]

As I read that, it is saying that holders of First Class travel facilities may be asked to sit in Standard Premium, but otherwise sitting in Standard Premium is not permitted.

That is how I read it too. This is a new one.

On Monday 3 January 2022 I caught the 08.43 from Euston to Edinburgh, an 11 car set. As a 1st class status pass holder I sat in the second coach from the rear, with the seats labelled standard premium. Before we set off the catering crew came through and changed them to first class. Intrigued by this I asked why, and was told that the latest instruction was that first class was the rear two coaches Monday to Friday, but just the rear coach at weekends. I don’t know if there is any difference in this respect between a 9 car and a 11 car set.

It seems bonkers to insist putting staff entitled to first class travel in first accmodation (mostly airline seats with limited view) when there is in my experience so much more room in standard premium, only to ask them to move there if it then gets busy in first. Yes you lose out on your free coffee too but that isn’t worth arguing about in my view. It would be interesting to understand the rational.

 

[AndrewE]

Do you hold First Class travel facilities?

Yes, or I wouldn't have been there, or holding seat reservations for that coach.

As I read that, it is saying that holders of First Class travel facilities may be asked to sit in Standard Premium but otherwise sitting in Standard Premium is not permitted.

It says that now, but I am asking if anyone has a copy of the two previous versions, I wasn't aware that it had come in. Doesn't fit with the (still-current) prohibition on using that coach though.

[Check before every journey?]

Yes, as clearly stated on the RSTL website.

That is hardly reasonable. Checking at the beginning of each half-year, and before you go to strange territory is normal for me.

Wouldn't the reason have been that as there is now less real 1st class seating, a walk up 1st class paying passenger could have got on at any stop on the route and needed a seat - and add on social distancing on top they want to actively reduce occupancy to start with. Are some pendolinos now basically down to 1 real 1st class coach - the end one? (apols if I am mistaken about that)

That seems to be the case, but a) doesn't fit in with their rules laid down in the paragraphs before it, b) only seems to apply in certain circumstances at the whim of someone (anybody?) on the train c) ignores the fact that the train wasn't very busy (in First anyway) d) allows someone to trump a legitimately-held seat reservation (when having one was actually mandatory when social distancing first came in.)

We weren't asked how far we were travelling, or offered any explanation (e.g. that it might get busy), or politely asked to sit in a different coach - just very publicly ordered out.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That is hardly reasonable. Checking at the beginning of each half-year, and before you go to strange territory is normal for me.

Is changing the rules on the fly a completely new innovation? If so, then it may be that you will have to change when you check. If not, then it seems to me that in the past you have got lucky but on this occasion your luck ran out.

 

[WesternLancer]

We weren't asked how far we were travelling, or offered any explanation (e.g. that it might get busy), or politely asked to sit in a different coach - just very publicly ordered out.

seems very poor. assume from a customer service host too? - where you might think the std of service would default to better than that...

Tho I can imagine there are some staff who resent giving the level of service to retired staff that they perceive as "not having paid for it" when they themselves can hope for no such level of 'perk' (as they see it) in their own retirement years.

The Std Premium coach rule seems odd in that this carriage often seems fairly empty, was unchecked on the last occasion I used it (so no fee taken from me even tho I was happy and waiting to pay - it was not easy for me to go and find staff to offer to pay due to not wishing to leave my luggage unattended), and efforts to encourage passengers to trade up to it on board don't seem to be made by train crew, nor is it seemingly widely marketed by Avanti.

 

[AndrewE]

Tho I can imagine there are some staff who resent giving the level of service to retired staff that they perceive as "not having paid for it" when they themselves can hope for no such level of 'perk' (as they see it) in their own retirement years.

Quite the opposite:

Avanti West Coast pass holders with either Family and Retired Leisure Cards endorsed 1L, or ID Cards endorsed 1U are entitled to complimentary non-alcoholic beverages at all times, and food for leisure travel (subject to availability, with the priority of food being used for customers first)
• Avanti West Coast pass holders with either Family and Retired Leisure Cards endorsed 2L, or ID Cards endorsed 2U are entitled to complimentary non-alcoholic beverages and food, for leisure Weekend Travel Only travel (subject to availability, with the priority of food being used for customers first)

and I don't imagine their concessions stop on retirement.

 

[Haywain]

That is hardly reasonable. Checking at the beginning of each half-year, and before you go to strange territory is normal for me.

Bad luck. You've not much room for complaint if you didn't.

ignores the fact that the train wasn't very busy (in First anyway) d) allows someone to trump a legitimately-held seat reservation

If you have First Class facilities why did you have a reservation in Standard Premium?

 

[AndrewE]

The whole point is that I had been reserved into the proper first class by an Avanti travel centre, and was sitting in the coach I was reserved into.
Post 18?

Is changing the rules on the fly a completely new innovation?

I have never met it before. I don't think "Winter 21-22 restrictions" is only there to identify the timetable.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is changing the rules on the fly a completely new innovation? If so, then it may be that you will have to change when you check. If not, then it seems to me that in the past you have got lucky but on this occasion your luck ran out.

Traditionally it's only been at timetable changes, but they've been more frequent since C*v*d as rules relating to travel in general have changed.

 

[Haywain]

The whole point is that I had been reserved into the proper first class by an Avanti travel centre, and was sitting in the coach I was reserved into.
Post 18?

Standard Premium is not "proper first class". That's why it's called Standard Premium.

 

[Falcon1200]

My recent experiences on Avanti WC, as a retired First Class staff pass holder, have included the following;

Sat in First Class when there were plenty of spare seats;
Sat in Standard Class, and remained there, when the 1.5 First Class coaches appeared to be fully reserved, half expecting when my ticket was checked to be asked if I wanted to move to Standard Premium; This has not happened once (yet).
Sat in Standard Class and when my ticket was checked, asked if I was OK to sit in Standard Premium, due to the reservation issue above - This was agreed without hesitation.

I do not, unless forced to, reserve a seat as I fully agree that fare-paying passengers should take precedence.