Retro Railtours

[alex57601]

Nicely ignored the follow up post then. Its a personal opinion. There is a big difference in what I am/was looking for in a day out between doing 87s and a grid-hauled RAILTOUR. If you are happy to spend £50+ and not hear a thing all day because you are three coaches back in some musty coffin then fair enough, but I'd rather not, especially when it is effectively a choice between this and the SRPS job a week later. Oh and please tell how the Cumbrian Coast is even slightly relevant to Huddersfield-Bath?! Its pretty basic fact that you will hear a lot less loco noise in a coffin, and surprisingly enough thats quite an important factor to some people.

Advertise it as aircons if it is, not "traditional BR carriages" which to me at least means pv stock.

Well in that case then, why not get in touch with Retro Railtours and state the reasons why you won't be booking on the tour and define the meaning of "traditional BR coaches" rather than spout them on here. At the end of the day you have an option of a Class 56 tour which you can either book on or not, and your post suggests you're going to hang fire in case another operator comes along with a similar offering with coaches more to your liking. :roll:

It is also worth pointing out that Compass Tours have used air-cons for their tours since 2005 which has been a winner with their passengers, and nobody was complaining about the use of air-cons when they ran tours last year with 37s and 40145.

As for the Cumbrian Coast it is relevant in the sense that if you wanted to go on a railtour along there that also covers the Maryport-Carlisle section you won't be doing it with a rake of Mk1/Mk2 PVs because they are banned for clearance purposes. Face it, air-cons are here to stay in the charter market, and railtour promoters are unlikely to stop using them just to meet the needs of a minority who desire noise - they are in the business to make money.
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Well, FWIW my friend and I were considering this tour as it looked like a bit of a corker, but if it's air-cons, then we're simply not interested. We're not bashers as such (don't flail or shout My Lordz, although we don't really have a problem with those who do), but there's no atmosphere shut up in a coffin for 12+ hours. If it's just a day out and some dining people want, that's fine, and air-cons are fine. Why then would such a tour be hauled by a pair of 56s when a deadly dull ETH duff would be OK for the dining fraternity? The mere presence of a pair of 56s suggests that the basher market is at least being considered, and air-cons are inconsistent with bashing. With PV coaches, a tour operator can be in both markets. Won't some sort of duffage or bodysnatcher or whatever have to be be tacked on throughout the train's working anyway if the air-con is going to be switched on? Getting less appealing by the minute.
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There were a lot of bashers on the Capital Whistler in November, but since that ended up in a punch-up, I'm not sure how much Spitfire like bashers. They had a notice in the tour leaflet specifically banning flailing and bellowing, threatening offenders with ejection. There was a lot of leaning out, and a bit of flailing on the day, but until everyone got hammered, the whole thing was pretty low key.

I'm expecting much the same on the Celtic Growler in March. Sans punch-up of course!

Spitfire are taking a zero tolerance policy on bellowing. And considering they have made the news over the matter during 2008 I don't blame them.

My advice would be to not even contemplate doing something of a similar irk.

 

[metrocammel]

We realise 'air cons' aren't everybody's cup of tea, however, on balance, after assesing the condition of the PVs on the Deltic tour, we have decided to use a Cargo-D rake. Fair enough, you can't do as much bellowing or whatever (which is banned on all tours anyway) from them, but we feel if you're in a coach next to a pair of 56s, you will struggle not to hear the thrash from the front coach!

Unfortunately, we cannot cater for 'bashers' alone. The majority of passengers on the Deltic Retro Scot tour were non-crank daytrippers, and they are quite a hard market to satisfy- and a clapped out PV isn't going to do much good!

As Alex has pointed out, we are not alone when it comes to using aircons. Compass have been doing it for several years.

Regarding the comments about the 'bodysnatcher', this would be a neccesary even if were to use mk1s / mk2 PVs, as otherwise, there would be no ETS supply- so you would have a rather cold train! Now the normals wouldn't be happy with that! The only way around that would to have some sort of genny van, but that defeats the object with this tour, as a run-round at Bristol for the run to Bath would be too time-consuming.

 

[4SRKT]

We realise 'air cons' aren't everybody's cup of tea, however, on balance, after assesing the condition of the PVs on the Deltic tour, we have decided to use a Cargo-D rake. Fair enough, you can't do as much bellowing or whatever (which is banned on all tours anyway) from them, but we feel if you're in a coach next to a pair of 56s, you will struggle not to hear the thrash from the front coach!

Unfortunately, we cannot cater for 'bashers' alone. The majority of passengers on the Deltic Retro Scot tour were non-crank daytrippers, and they are quite a hard market to satisfy- and a clapped out PV isn't going to do much good!

As Alex has pointed out, we are not alone when it comes to using aircons. Compass have been doing it for several years.

Regarding the comments about the 'bodysnatcher', this would be a neccesary even if were to use mk1s / mk2 PVs, as otherwise, there would be no ETS supply- so you would have a rather cold train! Now the normals wouldn't be happy with that! The only way around that would to have some sort of genny van, but that defeats the object with this tour, as a run-round at Bristol for the run to Bath would be too time-consuming.

I'm sure the dining crowd are indeed hard to satisfy, but why does a PV set have to be 'clapped out'? There are rakes of perfectly presentable stock out there. The point I was making was that PV stock doesn't have to alienate normals, but air-cons almost by definition alienate bashers. Therefore your comment about not being able to cater for bashers alone seems a bit out of place: I don't think anyone here expects you to cater for bashers alone.

The comment about ETH locos on the back is fair enough in winter, but do you need an ETH loco on PV stock in May?

Anyway, I'm sure it'll be a cracking day out. Enjoy!
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Spitfire are taking a zero tolerance policy on bellowing. And considering they have made the news over the matter during 2008 I don't blame them.

My advice would be to not even contemplate doing something of a similar irk.

Indeed. As I said I don't flail or bellow, but do like to get my head out of the window. In air-con stock with four vestibule windows to every 64 seats, there's going to be a lot of unsatisfied heads on the shoulders of perfectly well-behaved people. Not all 'bashers' are knobheads, as someone upthread appeared to imply. You'll probably get a lot of bashers spilling over into the vestibules of the first class and dining coaches, which might upset the normals.

 

[theblackwatch]

Indeed. As I said I don't flail or bellow, but do like to get my head out of the window. In air-con stock with four vestibule windows to every 64 seats, there's going to be a lot of unsatisfied heads on the shoulders of perfectly well-behaved people. Not all 'bashers' are knobheads, as someone upthread appeared to imply. You'll probably get a lot of bashers spilling over into the vestibules of the first class and dining coaches, which might upset the normals.

Being one of those people who is regularly sat in coach A or B on railtours, I can assure you that I don't think all bashers are knobheads! (Nor did I accuse anyone on here of being one as someone thought - I simply pointed out that if anyone behaves like one, it won't be allowed. That applies to any promoter's trains.) It's only a tiny minority who behave like idiots, but it reflects on everyone.

Regarding the use of 'aircons', I've been on tours with 50s, 55s, 37s and the 40 in the past few years, all with this type of stock and not seen it cause a problem for anyone on board. At the end of the say though, it's a personal choice - if you'd rather have no 56 than a 56 of aircons, then it's up to you.

 

[4SRKT]

Being one of those people who is regularly sat in coach A or B on railtours, I can assure you that I don't think all bashers are knobheads! (Nor did I accuse anyone on here of being one as someone thought - I simply pointed out that if anyone behaves like one, it won't be allowed. That applies to any promoter's trains.) It's only a tiny minority who behave like idiots, but it reflects on everyone.

I agree, and leads to things like that ludicrous furore in the Mail on Sunday. Someone brought that into work and now everyone thinks I go out at weekends beating up duff bashers or something! The nazi connotation in that article by Christian Wolmar (who really ought to know better) was both hurtful and offensive.

Regarding the use of 'aircons', I've been on tours with 50s, 55s, 37s and the 40 in the past few years, all with this type of stock and not seen it cause a problem for anyone on board. At the end of the say though, it's a personal choice - if you'd rather have no 56 than a 56 of aircons, then it's up to you.

It is, and I'd prefer not to go on this basis. Shame, but I'm sure those who do go will enjoy their day.

 

[metrocammel]

I'm sure the dining crowd are indeed hard to satisfy, but why does a PV set have to be 'clapped out'? There are rakes of perfectly presentable stock out there.

In my experience of the current railtour scene, I cannot think of a PV that I have 'enjoyed' travelling in. When I first viewed the Retro Scot rake on the Thursday before the tour, I was very pleased that the first two coaches were very 'smart' "Wessex" PVs. This was all very well until the morning of the tour, when the lights failed! (For the return, we had to purchase 'emergency lighting' in Edinburgh). The next problem came when someone leaned against a door, and a chunk of the bottom of it fell off(!) Also, one of the toilets was out of use. These were very smarly liveried coaches, that look presentable, but sadly, weren't up to standard that we expect.

The comment about ETH locos on the back is fair enough in winter, but do you need an ETH loco on PV stock in May?

Again, if it was 'bashers only', then probably not. In May, it's not exactly the height of summer, and there is a good chance that is could be cold - afterall, it's not unknown for it to snow in April! Normal pax aren't as resilient as bashers, and if one gets cold, they probably won't book with you again!



Anyway, I'm sure it'll be a cracking day out. Enjoy!- Thanks! touch wood it'll be a good day

 

[37113]

There were a lot of bashers on the Capital Whistler in November, but since that ended up in a punch-up, I'm not sure how much Spitfire like bashers. They had a notice in the tour leaflet specifically banning flailing and bellowing, threatening offenders with ejection. There was a lot of leaning out, and a bit of flailing on the day, but until everyone got hammered, the whole thing was pretty low key.

I'm expecting much the same on the Celtic Growler in March. Sans punch-up of course!

:roll: I think punch up may not exactly be the right term, if you were in coach C, you'll know what was said/happend.

With regards to bellowing/flailing/smoking/fare evasion, we do have a zero tolerance policy on these, this has been the case long before the Capital Whistler tour, with passengers put off on several of our tours now and bans in place.

Back to the topic in hand, Good luck with this one James...

 

[4SRKT]

:roll: I think punch up may not exactly be the right term, if you were in coach C, you'll know what was said/happend.

With regards to bellowing/flailing/smoking/fare evasion, we do have a zero tolerance policy on these, this has been the case long before the Capital Whistler tour, with passengers put off on several of our tours now and bans in place.

Back to the topic in hand, Good luck with this one James...

I was in coach B so TBF was not in the thick of it. Whatever happened, its appearance in the national press was regrettable.

 

[87015]

Well in that case then, why not get in touch with Retro Railtours and state the reasons why you won't be booking on the tour and define the meaning of "traditional BR coaches" rather than spout them on here. At the end of the day you have an option of a Class 56 tour which you can either book on or not, and your post suggests you're going to hang fire in case another operator comes along with a similar offering with coaches more to your liking. :roll:

I haven't said I won' be booking yet. I said "re-think required". And as James posts on here regularly it seemed a reasonable place to raise it rather than annoying his 'business line', Compass do indeed advertise as aircon stock and I think if stock is going to be aircons then it should be advertised as such as it has a big effect on the atmosphere on-board in my experience. Apparently you are allowed to give out hints and noone else though. Back to this tour, given that it comes in the middle of a hectic three-week period cranking wise I can't do everything I'd like to and choices will have to be made, especially around railtours which will cost me upwards of £200 total and minimum three days away, so the choice will come down to little things like the stock. I like grids a lot, I enjoyed the acoustics of two yesterday, but 2x37 to Mallaig is almost as tempting and I can't afford to do both at the moment.

We realise 'air cons' aren't everybody's cup of tea, however, on balance, after assesing the condition of the PVs on the Deltic tour, we have decided to use a Cargo-D rake. Fair enough, you can't do as much bellowing or whatever (which is banned on all tours anyway) from them, but we feel if you're in a coach next to a pair of 56s, you will struggle not to hear the thrash from the front coach!

You have to pay for quality stock So once again the main issue is poorly maintained charter stock....!! Being in the first coach with aircons won't be a 'can't hear the thrash issue', but it will be different if you are four coaches back.

 

[37412]

2x37 to Mallaig is almost as tempting and I can't afford to do both at the moment.

Let us know if you are going to do that, I'm planning to.

 

[4SRKT]

You have to pay for quality stock So once again the main issue is poorly maintained charter stock....!! Being in the first coach with aircons won't be a 'can't hear the thrash issue', but it will be different if you are four coaches back.

Wherever you are in the train, you won't be able to hear the thrash as you would in the equivalent coach in a rake of PV stock.

 

[Techniquest]

Indeed so, and I would hope James and his crew of tour organisers would place all of the bashers in the front coach or two. I daresay being in the front coach you'd have no issue of hearing the thrash from the 56s, maybe with some straining in the second coach with droplights open and such like, but further back you will struggle to hear owt.

Which is what I brought up my basher-friendly comment from, that hopefully all of the bashers will be put where they want to be and leave the rest to the norms.

Personally, after speaking to Dave and learning more about my local mainline than I knew previous, I would hope Standard and the bashers' coaches are at the front on the return leg, so that we can enjoy some 56 thrash up the infamous banks, most particularly Llanvihangel.

I agree with putting the 57 on the rear for the ETS, even the spring season in this country is horribly cold (last April's fester at Dilton Marsh for the 20s to Weymouth immediately comes to mind) usually so some sort of ETS provision will be required! I'm hoping for 57309 personally as it's one of my last of the sub-class to scratch, and of course these days the Virgin 57s are much harder to go after with the small number of booked passenger work for them.

I do like the idea of having MK3s on the tour, the seats are quite comfortable which I consider vital for a tour of a considerable length, of which category this tour falls under. Granted, nowhere near as comfortable as the seats in MK1s, but for air-con stock the MK3s are brilliant in my eyes. But I do also disapprove (as 87015 does) of the tour advertising 'traditional BR carriages' when MK3s are still mainline and current stock! Traditional BR stock would, not just to me but many others, be MK1s and to a much lesser extent early MK2s.

However, I agree with James that some MK1 stock is in awful condition which would put the norms off. And since these days tour operators have to cater for norms more than bashers, you've got to cater for their requirements to ensure they come back on tour with you again. Bashers might do, irrespective of MK1 condition, but norms finding broken doors, non-working toilets and generally draughty stock would not approve! I know I did not approve whatsoever of freezing my netheregions off on a HST with faulty electrics in January 2009, and I'm a basher!

Anyway, I still need to make a decision on this tour. My only query for now is for James:

As I might not be able to afford to do the full tour, will a one-way part-fare from Bath to Shrewsbury be available?

 

[TEW]

I'm hoping for 57309 personally as it's one of my last of the sub-class to scratch, and of course these days the Virgin 57s are much harder to go after with the small number of booked passenger work for them.

I do like the idea of having MK3s on the tour, the seats are quite comfortable which I consider vital for a tour of a considerable length, of which category this tour falls under. Granted, nowhere near as comfortable as the seats in MK1s, but for air-con stock the MK3s are brilliant in my eyes.

But I do also disapprove (as 87015 does) of the tour advertising 'traditional BR carriages' when MK3s are still mainline and current stock! Traditional BR stock would, not just to me but many others, be MK1s and to a much lesser extent early MK2s.

It will very probably be 57601 as all tours are.

I actually find MK3 seats much more comfortable than MK1 seats, and did it actually say anything about MK3s or will it be Late MK2s.

MK1s, MK2s and MK3s are all traditional BR stock in my eyes, they were all bought and constructed on behalf of British Rail.

 

[4SRKT]

To my mind the most comfortable second class seats ever were those in the MkIIa-d coaches, mostly PV. Good memories of Mk IIa-c on the NTP route as a youth, but even better on this route were the Mk I FOs that had been converted to second class by the simple expedient of changing the moquette. These were truly luxurious. Shame about the dud traction in the shape of GD or CD ETH duffs and an endless procession of 45/1s Still, in summer 45/0s featured often enough.

My favourite first class coaches were also Mk IIs, this time FKs - the ones with the black and grey moquette. Lovely coaches.

 

[matt]

It will very probably be 57601 as all tours are.

I actually find MK3 seats much more comfortable than MK1 seats, and did it actually say anything about MK3s or will it be Late MK2s.

MK1s, MK2s and MK3s are all traditional BR stock in my eyes, they were all bought and constructed on behalf of British Rail.

I thought this was going to be a DBS operated tour so won't be 57601

 

[theblackwatch]

I thought this was going to be a DBS operated tour so won't be 57601

That's correct, the tour isn't a WCRC one and Virgin will be supplying the 57 for ETS purposes.

 

[alex57601]

Indeed so, and I would hope James and his crew of tour organisers would place all of the bashers in the front coach or two. I daresay being in the front coach you'd have no issue of hearing the thrash from the 56s, maybe with some straining in the second coach with droplights open and such like, but further back you will struggle to hear owt.

Which is what I brought up my basher-friendly comment from, that hopefully all of the bashers will be put where they want to be and leave the rest to the norms.

Personally, after speaking to Dave and learning more about my local mainline than I knew previous, I would hope Standard and the bashers' coaches are at the front on the return leg, so that we can enjoy some 56 thrash up the infamous banks, most particularly Llanvihangel.

I agree with putting the 57 on the rear for the ETS, even the spring season in this country is horribly cold (last April's fester at Dilton Marsh for the 20s to Weymouth immediately comes to mind) usually so some sort of ETS provision will be required! I'm hoping for 57309 personally as it's one of my last of the sub-class to scratch, and of course these days the Virgin 57s are much harder to go after with the small number of booked passenger work for them.

I do like the idea of having MK3s on the tour, the seats are quite comfortable which I consider vital for a tour of a considerable length, of which category this tour falls under. Granted, nowhere near as comfortable as the seats in MK1s, but for air-con stock the MK3s are brilliant in my eyes. But I do also disapprove (as 87015 does) of the tour advertising 'traditional BR carriages' when MK3s are still mainline and current stock! Traditional BR stock would, not just to me but many others, be MK1s and to a much lesser extent early MK2s.

However, I agree with James that some MK1 stock is in awful condition which would put the norms off. And since these days tour operators have to cater for norms more than bashers, you've got to cater for their requirements to ensure they come back on tour with you again. Bashers might do, irrespective of MK1 condition, but norms finding broken doors, non-working toilets and generally draughty stock would not approve! I know I did not approve whatsoever of freezing my netheregions off on a HST with faulty electrics in January 2009, and I'm a basher!

Anyway, I still need to make a decision on this tour. My only query for now is for James:

As I might not be able to afford to do the full tour, will a one-way part-fare from Bath to Shrewsbury be available?

I imagine that the 'known of' bashers (in a good sense) are allocated seats towards where the locos will be unless of course they request seats in that coach, which after requesting coach A seats with Spitfire once they were able to provide.

As for formations, I'm sure the appropriate requests will be made to have the stock formed so that the bashers are close to the locos, although at the end of the day it all depends on how the rake is formed on depot before the tour as sometimes it isn't possible to have the rake formed exactly how you may want it.

 

[Jim]

it could sit in Bathampton Loop (assuming no freight needs it).

Which can only be used in the London direction - so snuffs that up.

Bradford Junction, posiable.

Thingly, no chance, NR would never path something as ludicrous as that suggestion!

 

[Techniquest]

Oh well, least it was an idea. Hopefully soon we'll know what the plan is

 

[devon_metro]

If it is to be operated by DBS, it is likely it will return to Barton Hill for servicing. There are no facilities at Westbury to facilitate a long rake of mk1/2s.

 

[metrocammel]

If it is to be operated by DBS, it is likely it will return to Barton Hill for servicing. There are no facilities at Westbury to facilitate a long rake of mk1/2s.

It's likely to go to Westbury. The usual scenario is the stock goes to Westbury, then gets tanked by the local fire brigade.

 

[devon_metro]

It's likely to go to Westbury. The usual scenario is the stock goes to Westbury, then gets tanked by the local fire brigade.

Ah, fair enough!

 

[metrocammel]

As we did with the Retro Scot tour, we have agreed a bulk booking 'meet' discount for Rail UK members, friends & family. You can view the forum meets section: http://www.railforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=22268

As I say, I shall look forward to seeing some RailUK faces on-board

 

[metrocammel]

Just to note, a fair few of our Stockport passengers have asked us why we weren't calling at Wilmslow -so 'by popular demand', we are now picking up & setting down at Wilmslow on the 4th!

 

[4SRKT]

When did ETH become ETS? And what does the S stand for?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

ETH: Electric Train Heat
ETS: Electric Train Supply

 

[Techniquest]

With ETS being the correct term, but ETH always been the TLA of choice by enthusiasts it appears. Prefer the former myself, but there we go.

 

[metrocammel]

When did ETH become ETS? And what does the S stand for?

'ETH' is a term that goes back to when the electric supply was purely to supply heat to the train. ie, a 47/4 generating electricity to power the electric heaters in mk1 coaches.

The term was modified to 'supply' when the likes of mk2d/e/f & mk3s came along, and the 'electricity' generated by the loco was used for various purposes, rather than just supplying 'heat'. Of course, old habits die hard, and most 'old school' railwaymen will still refer to it as 'ETH'!

 

[Techniquest]

I thought the 's' stood for 'supply' not 'service'...

 

[Phoenix]

I thought the 's' stood for 'supply' not 'service'...

im sure that it has been for supply rather than service also.