Return to Education

[CD]

From next month upon reopening of schools, colleges and universities, the transport system will have to cope with large numbers of students mixing with the regular passengers.
There are numerous bus services throughout the country with infrequent timetables, built around the school term. As many young people could be "super spreaders" I expect many people will wish to avoid the services which convey students. This could lead to more people abandoning public transport causing further loss of revenue to the transport companies.

 

[DB]

As many young people could be "super spreaders"

Could they? There seems to be little evidence for it occuring much at all, never mind "many".

 

[duncanp]

From next month upon reopening of schools, colleges and universities, the transport system will have to cope with large numbers of students mixing with the regular passengers.
There are numerous bus services throughout the country with infrequent timetables, built around the school term. As many young people could be "super spreaders" I expect many people will wish to avoid the services which convey students. This could lead to more people abandoning public transport causing further loss of revenue to the transport companies.

In rural areas, there are often special schoolday only services because otherwise students would not be able to get to school, as existing infrequent services could be overwhelmed.

It is in towns and cities that school children are more likely to mix with other people on public transport.

Perhaps the general advice will be to try and avoid travelling at school opening and closing times, and certain services may have to be strengthened to cope with the rise in demand.

 

[Richard Scott]

Well plenty of children have been using public transport over past few months and not seeing any massive rises. There are also no known cases where a pupil has passes the virus onto a teacher. Think this is not worth worrying about. Last thing we need is government jumping on another bandwagon.

 

[sjpowermac]

For the avoidance of doubt, I fully support the reopening of schools in the U.K. though I do think the way this is being done will lead to an increase in transmission of the virus. Time will tell...

A report by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) into an outbreak at a summer camp in Georgia suggests children – even asymptomatic cases – may play an important role in community transmission of Covid-19.

Here we have what has happened in Israel

The hardest-hit school was Jerusalem’s Gymnasium Rehavia, where 153 students and 25 staff tested positive, with some criticising the handling of the outbreak.

Covid-19 may spread more easily among children than thought, report warns

US health body highlights risks of reopening after outbreaks in state of Georgia and in Israel

www.theguardian.com

From next month upon reopening of schools, colleges and universities, the transport system will have to cope with large numbers of students mixing with the regular passengers.
There are numerous bus services throughout the country with infrequent timetables, built around the school term. As many young people could be "super spreaders" I expect many people will wish to avoid the services which convey students. This could lead to more people abandoning public transport causing further loss of revenue to the transport companies.

Schools in my city are urging students to avoid public transport. At my own school we re-opened to Year 10 back in June on a limited basis and I think the majority followed this advice with many arriving by car. I’m not sure how things will play out in September.

 

[Bantamzen]

For the avoidance of doubt, I fully support the reopening of schools in the U.K. though I do think the way this is being done will lead to an increase in transmission of the virus. Time will tell...

A summer camp in the US is not typical of a British school, so is not a good example.

Here we have what has happened in Israel

Covid-19 may spread more easily among children than thought, report warns

US health body highlights risks of reopening after outbreaks in state of Georgia and in Israel

www.theguardian.com

In countries that tried to suppress the virus more heavily, it is entirely possible that something like schools opening might well cause an increase in cases, especially if intensive testing takes place.

Schools in my city are urging students to avoid public transport. At my own school we re-opened to Year 10 back in June on a limited basis and I think the majority followed this advice with many arriving by car. I’m not sure how things will play out in September.

There is little doubt public transport will take a hit, we don't need the schools reopening to tell us that, the government has made it very clear to large swaths of the public that it is scary and dangerous, and will likely result in an insta-death.

Seriously though, this is one of the kind of articles that get my blood boiling. Lazy hacks searching the web for a bit of confirmation bias to spoon feed their readership, particularly those scared daft by the government and looking for any click bait to back up their excuses to stay as much in isolation as possible. Yes kids can carry the virus, yes they can potentially spread it, and in very, very extreme cases a handful might even succumb to it. Most however will not, and a stark choice lies in front of the world. Hide them away until the nasty virus goes away whilst risking their education and future, or get them learning & interacting again at a statistically insignificant risk thy might get poorly (which they might from many other pathogens).

Extreme enough for you?

 

[CD]

Could they? There seems to be little evidence for it occuring much at all, never mind "many".

The common cold is a Corona virus. It has been proved over the years that children are the main spreaders of it. We know so very little about Covid 19, so need to be cautious.

 

[sjpowermac]

Extreme enough for you?

I’m actually hurt that you didn’t use any of your usual favourites of ‘Locktivist/Maskvist/Facebook Karen’ (is there a Facebook Kevin, just for balance?).

Anyhow, let’s revisit your post in, shall we say early November and see how it’s all going by then.

 

[Richard Scott]

The common cold is a Corona virus. It has been proved over the years that children are the main spreaders of it. We know so very little about Covid 19, so need to be cautious.

So, I work with teenagers and have done for years, never had a cold. We need to stop being cautious and ruining children's futures. When is this going to stop? We may as well shut schools and give up on life as has been pointed out many times at current rate of infections we're going to be doing this for 200years. Obviously doesn't take a mathematician to work out even if cases increased 10 fold we'll still be doing it for 20 years. Just not acceptable.

 

[Bantamzen]

I’m actually hurt that you didn’t use any of your usual favourites of ‘Locktivist/Maskvist/Facebook Karen’ (is there a Facebook Kevin, just for balance?).

Anyhow, let’s revisit your post in, shall we say early November and see how it’s all going by then.

Do be hurt, you need to level up again for those. In the meantime we shall see, as the virus spreads further through our population, so hospitalisations & deaths reduce. Its all there in the data.

 

[sjpowermac]

So, I work with teenagers and have done for years, never had a cold.

Please clarify how this is ‘evidence’ relating to the spread of coronavirus. Or have I misread your post?

I’ve put my ‘money’ where my mouth is and have been taking extra slots on the rota at my own school, doing a minimum of three days a week since late May. I agree with you, it’s very important that students return.

Let’s see though what happens to infections once everyone is back full time...

 

[Richard Scott]

Please clarify how this is ‘evidence’ relating to the spread of coronavirus. Or have I misread your post?

I’ve put my ‘money’ where my mouth is and have been taking extra slots on the rota at my own school, doing a minimum of three days a week since late May. I agree with you, it’s very important that students return.

Let’s see though what happens to infections once everyone is back full time...

The poster said that a cold is a coronavirus as is SARS-CoV-2 and said children were superspreaders of colds so could be superspreaders of SARS-CoV-2. My point is if that were the case I'd have had a lot of colds as would all my colleagues. As that isn't the case I don't think this has any bearing on spread of SARS-CoV-2

 

[sjpowermac]

Do be hurt, you need to level up again for those. In the meantime we shall see, as the virus spreads further through our population, so hospitalisations & deaths reduce. Its all there in the data.

The measures introduced by schools will do little to stop any spread of the virus (if it is present in the community) and they are massively inconvenient to anyone who works in a school.

So, I’m actually very sincere in hoping that you are correct in all that you’ve put there.

The poster said that a cold is a coronavirus as is SARS-CoV-2 and said children were superspreaders of colds so could be superspreaders of SARS-CoV-2. My point is if that were the case I'd have had a lot of colds as would all my colleagues. As that isn't the case I don't think this has any bearing on spread of SARS-CoV-2

Are you really sure that’s a correct claim to make? It doesn’t sound particularly scientific to me, but then again I’m not a scientist or medically qualified.

 

[Bantamzen]

The measures introduced by schools will do little to stop any spread of the virus (if it is present in the community) and they are massively inconvenient to anyone who works in a school.

So, I’m actually very sincere in hoping that you are correct in all that you’ve put there.

As I say, the data is all there. But the simple, clear facts are these. Mortality rates amongst the under 20s are miniscule, I believe at the last count 20 under 20s died with the virus since March (note died with). Mortality rates amongst the 20-50 year old brackets brackets are also very low, it only increases slowly with age amongst these groups. Its really only when you get to the very old do deaths rates rise exponentially, and even then getting to them early and into the ever improving care available is helping to reduce mortality further. The grim predictions of millions in hospital & hundreds of thousands dead have receded into the distance.

The point is we cannot continue to ignore the emerging picture. Yes, the numbers of infections are increasing, but so is the chances of survival or frankly not getting particularly ill at all. That is where we are, and we now owe it to everyone to start to work to get back to normal.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Seriously though, this is one of the kind of articles that get my blood boiling. Lazy hacks searching the web for a bit of confirmation bias to spoon feed their readership, particularly those scared daft by the government and looking for any click bait to back up their excuses to stay as much in isolation as possible. Yes kids can carry the virus, yes they can potentially spread it, and in very, very extreme cases a handful might even succumb to it. Most however will not, and a stark choice lies in front of the world. Hide them away until the nasty virus goes away whilst risking their education and future, or get them learning & interacting again at a statistically insignificant risk thy might get poorly (which they might from many other pathogens).

Another thread on here was based on a study, that said that if a vaccine could not be found, half of the population would be willing to see home schooling become the norm for the very long term. That sort of figure is utterly terrifying - people would be willing to throw away the ability for children to socialise with others, have a quality learning environment, and in many cases their one escape from a toxic home life, all over this virus.

 

[Richard Scott]

Are you really sure that’s a correct claim to make? It doesn’t sound particularly scientific to me, but then again I’m not a scientist or medically qualified.

No it isn't which really was the point I was trying to make to original poster.

 

[sjpowermac]

No it isn't which really was the point I was trying to make to original poster.

Thank you for clarifying that your point wasn’t actually based on science.

As I say, the data is all there. But the simple, clear facts are these. Mortality rates amongst the under 20s are miniscule, I believe at the last count 20 under 20s died with the virus since March (note died with). Mortality rates amongst the 20-50 year old brackets brackets are also very low, it only increases slowly with age amongst these groups. Its really only when you get to the very old do deaths rates rise exponentially, and even then getting to them early and into the ever improving care available is helping to reduce mortality further. The grim predictions of millions in hospital & hundreds of thousands dead have receded into the distance.

The point is we cannot continue to ignore the emerging picture. Yes, the numbers of infections are increasing, but so is the chances of survival or frankly not getting particularly ill at all. That is where we are, and we now owe it to everyone to start to work to get back to normal.

At no point have I said that I think children are likely to die of the virus.

For the avoidance of doubt, I fully support the full re-opening of schools. I’ve worked in school throughout the lockdown and have taken additional duties on the rota. I don’t need convincing of the importance of education.

Another thread on here was based on a study, that said that if a vaccine could not be found, half of the population would be willing to see home schooling become the norm for the very long term. That sort of figure is utterly terrifying - people would be willing to throw away the ability for children to socialise with others, have a quality learning environment, and in many cases their one escape from a toxic home life, all over this virus.

I’ve not seen that study, would it be possible for you to provide a link?

I agree with you that school is often the only stable environment in the lives of far too many young people. I also agree that school is a very safe place for children to be as regards the virus.

It’s certainly not a reason to keep them closed, but let’s wait and see if fully re-opening schools does have an impact on rates of infection.

 

[johnnychips]

...Facebook ‘Karen’ (is there a Facebook Kevin, just for balance?).

It is ‘Kyle’ or ‘Chad’

 

[sjpowermac]

It is ‘Kyle’ or ‘Chad’

Thank you for the information. All ways round, I don’t think that using any of the terms that I mentioned really furthers any argument.

 

[carlberry]

From next month upon reopening of schools, colleges and universities, the transport system will have to cope with large numbers of students mixing with the regular passengers.
There are numerous bus services throughout the country with infrequent timetables, built around the school term. As many young people could be "super spreaders" I expect many people will wish to avoid the services which convey students. This could lead to more people abandoning public transport causing further loss of revenue to the transport companies.

Most people avoided services used by large numbers of students before all this kicked off, that isn't going to change.

 

[johnnychips]

In my daily commute before all this, I frequently used to use a (packed) ‘service’ bus where students were about 90%, and about 10% were adults. I certainly won’t be put off by this, and I doubt other adults will, otherwise they will just not be able to get to work

The emissions from their mouths which worry me more than CV are foul language and slagging off their ‘mates’.

 

[Bantamzen]

At no point have I said that I think children are likely to die of the virus.

For the avoidance of doubt, I fully support the full re-opening of schools. I’ve worked in school throughout the lockdown and have taken additional duties on the rota. I don’t need convincing of the importance of education.

I'm glad we agree at least that the education of kids is a very high priority, and that we should be opening schools.

 

[sjpowermac]

I'm glad we agree at least that the education of kids is a very high priority, and that we should be opening schools.

Many thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.

I actually agree with much of your stance regarding the virus/economy.

I do differ though in my view of how well the economy will perform if we allow the virus to get out of control.

I think having an effective ‘test and trace’ system with an enhanced focus on schools is actually quite important. Some are pushing the line ‘kids won’t die, so all will be well’, but I think that’s quite short sighted.

 

[adc82140]

Just for comparison, in the 2019/2020 flu season, in the UK 28 children under 17 died, and 13 of them had no underlying health conditions. That didn't warrant a single column inch as far as I remember, and certainly no one was shouting for schools to close. (source- government figures. It's a PDF so I can't quote directly here, I'll have another go when I can get near a PC)

 

[philosopher]

Another thread on here was based on a study, that said that if a vaccine could not be found, half of the population would be willing to see home schooling become the norm for the very long term. That sort of figure is utterly terrifying - people would be willing to throw away the ability for children to socialise with others, have a quality learning environment, and in many cases their one escape from a toxic home life, all over this virus.

I too was quite shocked when I read that. I thought children receiving a normal education was the one easing of the lockdown that even the most pro lockdown individuals would accept, however this apparently is not the case.

 

[sjpowermac]

Just for comparison, in the 2019/2020 flu season, in the UK 28 children under 17 died, and 13 of them had no underlying health conditions. That didn't warrant a single column inch as far as I remember, and certainly no one was shouting for schools to close. (source- government figures. It's a PDF so I can't quote directly here, I'll have another go when I can get near a PC)

What are your views on having an effective test and trace system in place?

My understanding is that any concerns around schools opening fully is related to setting off new chains of infection. I don’t think I’ve read anything in the media about children being at risk of death.

I too was quite shocked when I read that. I thought children receiving a normal education was the one easing of the lockdown that even the most pro lockdown individuals would accept, however this apparently is not the case.

Unfortunately, here we go again, with yet another thread that just echoes round in circles based on the flimsiest of posts.

I actually work in a secondary school and prior to the end of term I phoned the parents of each child in my form group. This was to give them an outline of the practical arrangements the school intended to make and also to check on any welfare problems. I didn’t come across any parent or child that wasn’t looking forward to schools fully reopening.

One fifth of my form group I had seen on a regular basis since they attended school from late May onwards since their parents are ‘key workers’. My school made an increasingly generous interpretation of ‘key worker’ and ultimately we did struggle a bit to accommodate everyone (this was due to government imposed measures regarding social distancing). I certainly didn’t detect any lack of willingness to send children to school.

Naturally, this is circumstantial evidence and perhaps my school is unique, but I doubt it.

 

[adc82140]

What are your views on having an effective test and trace system in place?

My understanding is that any concerns around schools opening fully is related to setting off new chains of infection. I don’t think I’ve read anything in the media about children being at risk of death.

You know that children are not at risk. I know that children are not at risk. However, egged on by the media (social and mainstream) there is a subset of parents who do believe that their children could die if they are sent back to school. The irony being that a lack of education forms this sort of view.

Test and trace is a good thing in all environments, but with most children being asymptomatic, I'm not sure how it would work. I've seen regular routine testing being advocated, but until the spit test is rolled out I am very much against this in schools. It is unacceptable to have untrained individuals ramming cotton buds up young childrens noses.

 

[Bantamzen]

Many thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.

I actually agree with much of your stance regarding the virus/economy.

I do differ though in my view of how well the economy will perform if we allow the virus to get out of control.

I think having an effective ‘test and trace’ system with an enhanced focus on schools is actually quite important. Some are pushing the line ‘kids won’t die, so all will be well’, but I think that’s quite short sighted.

Test and trace will be very important for schools, but I wouldn't just focus on the numbers of cases in areas where there are local spikes. Its important to line up infection data with rates of symptoms, of hospitalisation & of course mortality rates. Not easy, but important to understand the impact on the wider community as a result of schools opening. At the moment the media, and by proxy the public focuses on one statistic or another which is in part driving some erratic and inconsistent decision making from the government, which is could lead to an on-off-on-off policy for months or years, and this will not be good for children's education or the economy.

 

[sjpowermac]

You know that children are not at risk. I know that children are not at risk. However, egged on by the media (social and mainstream) there is a subset of parents who do believe that their children could die if they are sent back to school. The irony being that a lack of education forms this sort of view.

Test and trace is a good thing in all environments, but with most children being asymptomatic, I'm not sure how it would work. I've seen regular routine testing being advocated, but until the spit test is rolled out I am very much against this in schools. It is unacceptable to have untrained individuals ramming cotton buds up young childrens noses.

At no point did I suggest routine testing.

I’ve certainly not come across any parents who think their children are likely to die on school. Your experience may well be different.

Here is my prediction of what will happen in September: all schools (other than those in local lockdown areas) will re-open and the vast majority of students will attend (I’ll go for 95% plus).

When you have a moment, would you be kind enough to give us your prediction?

 

[adc82140]

You didn't suggest routine testing. One of the teaching unions has (although it's the same one that suggested spraying children with disinfectant)

Press releases | National Education Union

Our latest press releases.

neu.org.uk

Test 3: Comprehensive testing
Comprehensive access to regular testing for students and staff, with isolation for all suspected cases, to ensure colleges don’t become hotspots for Covid-19. In addition to routine testing, protocols to be in place to ensure testing across whole college sites and other non-college work-based learning sites whenever a confirmed case of Covid-19 occurs.

And by the look of things, the children's commissioner too

Scientists urge routine Covid testing when English schools reopen

Exclusive: experts say staff and pupils should be screened for virus, possibly by group testing

www.theguardian.com

Scientists have called for routine Covid testing of teachers and pupils alongside a robust test-and-trace system, amid a debate over how to safely reopen schools in England.

On Sunday, the children’s commissioner for England, Anne Longfield, said teachers and pupils should have weekly tests, but Nick Gibb, the schools minister, ruled out the idea, saying instead that those who are symptomatic should be tested.