Returns to/from London

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AndyAwayDay

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At London Victoria, I bought a day return to Brighton. The machine gave just two options – FCC only or all services – I selected all services.

I assumed the ticket was valid to/from all London termini. However, on arriving back in London at another station, the Overground gate guard pointed out that the ticket was for travel from Victoria (and asked me whether it was a return, with the letters ‘RTN;’ staring him in the face).

Is there no longer a return ticket which allows travel out from one London terminus and back to another? If there is, how can I get the machines to sell one to me?
 
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AlterEgo

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It's valid into London terminals that fall on a permitted route. You obviously couldn't try and go the long way round into, say, Euston.

Victoria is absolutely fine though on that ticket. Which London terminal were you going back into?
 

Paul Kelly

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What price was on your ticket? There is a CDR specifically from London Victoria to Brighton, route ANY PERMITTED, priced at £24.20. But for 10p more you can get a CDR from London Terminals to Brighton - at £24.30. Perhaps the machine wasn't offering it because the specific ticket from Victoria was cheaper? You might need to go to the booking office to buy it. It seems like quite a confusing situation.
 

RJ

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AndyAwayDay, what was shown under the origin field - London Victoria or London Terminals? Tickets to Gatwick Airport and Brighton often have a named London station on them instead of London Terminals.
 

Paul Kelly

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If you look here you can see what fares will be available from Victoria to Brighton in the fares database, from the point of view of a ticket machine at Victoria. The Any Permitted fares from London Terminals don't show up as they have been overridden by specific fares from Victoria.

Perhaps Southern think they are doing people a favour by offering cheaper fares than the London Terminals ones, but it is only really the SVR and weekly season that have any meaningful difference in price, and it looks like it means people are unwittingly losing validity to other London Terminals.
 

AndyAwayDay

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The origin field gave 'London Victoria'. Is there another website that will show the London Terminals Any Permitted fares, so I could check before purchasing at the machine?
 

Paul Kelly

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You can use brfares.com and simply enter London Terminals (or code 1072 for quickness) for the origin, rather than London Victoria.
 

island

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Southern TVMs should allow you to purchase from an alternative origin.
 

bignosemac

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The OPs ticket is 'Any Permitted' route. Travelling to New Cross Gate would be on a permitted routed between Brighton and London Victoria according the the Routeing Guide.

The permitted routes are mapped using map LB or maps LB+SL. Using map LB the journey from Brighton to Victoria can be made via New Cross Gate to London Bridge then on to Waterloo East thence from Waterloo to Clapham Junction and finally on to Victoria. All mapped and no doubling back that I can see.

You can also go into London Bridge via New Cross Gate and then catch a direct train to London Victoria via Peckham Rye using maps LB+SL. Again, as mapped and no doubling back.

As the ticket type purchased by the OP also allows you full break of journey rights, ending short at New Cross Gate shouldn't have been a problem. I suspect, however, the member of staff challenging the validity of the ticket was unaware of the permitted routes and assumed that the journey couldn't be legitimately continued to the named destination from New Cross Gate.
 
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MikeWh

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New Cross Gate isn't a London terminal.

He was finishing short on the way back to Victoria via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Clapham Junction.;)
 

AlterEgo

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The origin field gave 'London Victoria'. Is there another website that will show the London Terminals Any Permitted fares, so I could check before purchasing at the machine?

This is crucial - the ticket isn't valid into London Terminals at all - only Victoria. New Cross Gate is, I assume, "off route".

Isn't it?
 

MikeWh

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This is crucial - the ticket isn't valid into London Terminals at all - only Victoria. New Cross Gate is, I assume, "off route".

Isn't it?

Let's recap ...

He was finishing short on the way back to Victoria via London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo and Clapham Junction.;)

The OPs ticket is 'Any Permitted' route. Travelling to New Cross Gate would be on a permitted routed between Brighton and London Victoria according the the Routeing Guide.

The permitted routes are mapped using map LB or maps LB+SL. Using map LB the journey from Brighton to Victoria can be made via New Cross Gate to London Bridge then on to Waterloo East thence from Waterloo to Clapham Junction and finally on to Victoria. All mapped and no doubling back that I can see.

You can also go into London Bridge via New Cross Gate and then catch a direct train to London Victoria via Peckham Rye using maps LB+SL. Again, as mapped and no doubling back.

As the ticket type purchased by the OP also allows you full break of journey rights, ending short at New Cross Gate shouldn't have been a problem. I suspect, however, the member of staff challenging the validity of the ticket was unaware of the permitted routes and assumed that the journey couldn't be legitimately continued to the named destination from New Cross Gate.
 

bignosemac

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This is crucial - the ticket isn't valid into London Terminals at all - only Victoria. New Cross Gate is, I assume, "off route".

Isn't it?

I provided two examples where New Cross Gate is on a permitted route from Brighton to London Victoria.

There are actually further, more esoteric, permitted routes between Brighton and London Victoria that include travel via New Cross Gate. You can travel from Brighton to London Bridge via New Cross Gate, then take one of many permitted routes to Victoria via places such as Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Streatham, Crystal Palace and Elephant & Castle.
 

Clip

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I provided two examples where New Cross Gate is on a permitted route from Brighton to London Victoria.

There are actually further, more esoteric, permitted routes between Brighton and London Victoria that include travel via New Cross Gate. You can travel from Brighton to London Bridge via New Cross Gate, then take one of many permitted routes to Victoria via places such as Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Streatham, Crystal Palace and Elephant & Castle.

And that is the perfect reason why some staff may get things wrong from time to time with the validity of the routes on such held tickets. When there is such vast validity of a ticket at some odd stations then staff who are presented with such a ticket that they will probably never see again they are probably going to think they are right and the passenger wrong. Its human nature.
 

bignosemac

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I totally agree, Clip.

So we have to ask, where should the benefit of the doubt lie?

I'd say with the passenger. Which, thankfully, in the OP's case, is what appears to have happened, as he didn't mention any sanction applied to him on exiting at New Cross Gate.
 

Clip

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I totally agree, Clip.

So we have to ask, where should the benefit of the doubt lie?

I'd say with the passenger. Which, thankfully, in the OP's case, is what appears to have happened, as he didn't mention any sanction applied to him on exiting at New Cross Gate.


Oh for sure and im pleased that no sanctions were applied. But I reckon that the staff member at New Cross gate will probably never have a 'London Victoria' ticket presented to him again within the next 10 years so will probably forget about the validity and then screams of foul play and being rubiish at his job will cascade down from the stands..
 

bicbasher

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I've looked on Southern's mixing deck for a Anytime return from Brighton to New Cross Gate and all it shows is the Anytime single of £20.70 or the off-peak return which isn't valid until 0900.

The data inputted was Monday 21st May at 0700.
 
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