Revealed: plans for schools in England from September 2020

[Huntergreed]

A week after it was first leaked, it is now official:

This is, in my opinion, completely unworkable.

In Scotland we can also have multiple year groups in a class (for instance, National 5 classes can be taken by S4, S5 and S6 year groups, surely they're not going to prevent people choosing qualifications purely on the basis that it's 'not safe' (which, in all likelihood, it is given the risk level)

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is, in my opinion, completely unworkable.

In Scotland we can also have multiple year groups in a class (for instance, National 5 classes can be taken by S4, S5 and S6 year groups, surely they're not going to prevent people choosing qualifications purely on the basis that it's 'not safe' (which, in all likelihood, it is given the risk level)

Scotland will surely come up with its own rules taking into account its own circumstances, as this doesn't happen in England. Some very small schools have form groups which are "half years" but it's not that common.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How might this work in a secondary school?

I think it's fair to say it won't!

It's either safe to reopen or it isn't. These half-baked measures don't do anyone any favours. If it's safe to re-open (and by September I'd hope it is) then do it. If not, then don't.

Halfway houses just prolong the misery, achieve little, and are a sign of weak and poor leadership.

I don't think the English government could run a bath!

 

[Huntergreed]

A week after it was first leaked, it is now official:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53253722


How might this work in a secondary school?

Well, let's see..

So, two siblings in different year groups are walking together to school; they are joined by friends who live near them or on their route to school.

They get to the school gate. Some of the children go straight in, while others hang around and socialise with others in the playground (or perhaps in nearby streets) waiting for their year group to be let in. While those whose start time is later are hanging around, they are joined by friends in other year groups who are also waiting.

If they are to have break and lunch times, given a reduced 10 min break, you may have Year 7 going for break at 10am; the bell will ring for the end of their break at 10:10, and at 10:15 they are all back in classes and Year 8 will go, and so on. This means that, even with a shorter break, the final break time will finish at 1:115.

But then, just 15 minutes later, year 7 may need to go for lunch as early as 11:30. They would get a reduced 25 minutes lunch time , the bell would go at 11:55 and they'd all be in classes by 12:00 when Year 8 would go, and so on... meaning Year 11 don't get to finish lunch until 14:00.

And at the end of the day, Year 7 may need to finish at 14:10, then Year 8 15 minutes later, and so on... but of course, some of the kids will hang around outside the school until siblings/cousins/friends have their finishing time!

Breakfast clubs will presumably be cancelled, or perhaps run for one year group only.

Break/lunch time clubs will need to run concurrently from 10am to 2pm to cater for all year groups or be cancelled.

And after school clubs will either be cancelled or run for just one year group. Sports activities that rely on older children helping to run activities for younger children would be cancelled.

Children who have their closest friends in other year groups will no longer enjoy coming to school.

The school would presumably have to employ many additional staff, including "midd day supervisory assistants" who would need to work from 10am to 2pm, as break/lunch times could no longer be staffed by teachers and other school staff as it would take up too much of their day.

Instead of daily detentions, you'd either need to have a weekly detention for each year group, or times the number of staff on detention duty by five.

And what about lesson changeover times? You can't really stagger these for different year groups. You can't have each year group in a segregated part of the school unless you scrap specialist lessons such as Design Technology, Food, and Science.

It's unclear how learning support departments could possibly function, except perhaps by putting the most vulnerable students in a single bubble, but that ignores the fact that many students only require a bit of additional support.

It's absolute madness, it's going to cost a lot of money in additional staffing and students are going to suffer through loss of extra curricular activities, loss of leadership roles, and all sorts.

If anyone here has experience of working in a school, I'd be interested in hearing your views.

If anyone thinks this could work, I'd be curious to learn how they'd overcome the problems described above!

I'm in complete agreement for everything you have said here, this is completely unworkable and even blended learning, which is less effective, is more practical than this half baked pile of nonsense that is being proposed.

This is based off of the very false assumption that children only associate with and build friendships with children in the same year groups, and indeed this is practically being mandated through this proposal. It'll be extremely detrimental for the mental health of any children who have close friends in other year groups. It'll make all extra-curricular activities (of which the benefits are extremely significant for many children) completely impossible unless you restrict it to one year group (which simply won't happen) which is such a shame (anyone who says 'they're not important' or 'at least they're getting taught' doesn't understand what a school environment is actually like).

The complexity of timetabling, logistical planning and resource and staffing management required in this 'full return' (it's nowhere near a full return to normal schooling) is completely unworkable and anyone who has ever worked in a school environment whatsoever (which whoever proposed this clearly has not) will know this is quite frankly ludicrous. The ONLY satisfactory outcome is, if it is deemed safe for children to return to school full time, a return to completely normal schooling.

 

[yorkie]

In terms of extra curricular clubs:

A club for Year 7 students may involve students from different year groups helping out. For example if it was sport-related, then Year 8 - 10 sports leaders may be involved. If it was computer science related then Digital Leaders in Years 8 - 10 may be involved. Without the assistance of the older students, the teacher may not be able to run the activity. Also the younger students don't get to meet students in other years who share their interests. The older students don't get to develop their leadership skills.

Then there's the impact on Year 6 students. The activities that are part of their transition from primary to secondary were all cancelled when schools closed and have not resumed. Loads of older students were looking forward to helping those students when they get to Year 7, showing them round the school, helping them etc.

Parents of children who are among only a handful from their primary school are very keen for their children to get to meet other children in a similar position, and understandably so, and students already at secondary school who went to the same primary are keen to help, but yet none of that can happen. This is causing some children, and their parents, to be extremely stressed and worried.

Staggered break and lunch times could be achieved if you recruit sufficient midday staff to work in schools, in theory. It would cost a lot of money and cause all sorts of other problems.

But lesson changeovers seem impossible to me. You cannot have different lesson changeover times for different year groups, so if the changeover time is the same, then students are going to be mixing in the corridors. How can they get around that? I can't think of any practicable way, so it falls down at the most basic of hurdles.

It's difficult for me to contain my anger at the fact that some people think this is actually a good idea. I'd like to have an argument with those people! That's the full argument, not the 5 minute argument

 

[thejuggler]

Just listening to Gavin Williamson, he is absolutely awful and sounds as bored as those he is addressing probably are.

There may be a medical reason, but he replaces 'th' with 'v' and it really grates. 'those' becomes 'vose', 'these' becomes 'vese' etc.

He instills no comfidence whatsoever.

 

[Huntergreed]

It's difficult for me to contain my anger at the fact that some people think this is actually a good idea. I'd like to have an argument with those people! That's the full argument, not the 5 minute argument

It's not even that, it's the fact that the government are actually proposing to implement this idea, which means it clearly must have been thoroughly thought out and considered by many 'experts' in education.

I've seen some proposals I've thought were 'odd', but this is just 'ridiculous'.

 

[DB]

It's not even that, it's the fact that the government are actually proposing to implement this idea, which means it clearly must have been thoroughly thought out and considered by many 'experts' in education.

I've seen some proposals I've thought were 'odd', but this is just 'ridiculous'.

And it is one of the worst examples yet of tokenism - they've created a massively complicated system, which at a basic level simply won't work as intended, as it's based on an unwritten assumption that kids only really interact with other kids in the same year group. It ignores the massive elephant in the room that many will have siblings or friends in other year groups, who they will be spending time with outside of school, thereby rendering it all entirely pointless.

That's if it works as described even inside the schools, of course, which is highly unlikely due to the shared corridors and rooms - they won't be doing a deep clean of every classroom between each lesson!

 

[Senex]

.... they've created a massively complicated system, which at a basic level simply won't work as intended, ....

Just as they did quarter of a century ago for the railways? Or much more recently the national centralised testing plan? Or the arrangements for buying and distributing PPE? This schools plan looks like yet another typical product of Whitehall, put together without ever consulting the people who actually do the work in schools and know what they're talking about.

 

[johnnychips]

All this also ignores toilets and packed school buses.

 

[yorkie]

All this also ignores toilets and packed school buses.

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

 

[HSTEd]

Who cares if the young don't get educated properly?

The strategy in this outbreak has been to protect pensioners at any cost.

The cynic might suggest that this is something to do with the fact that pensioners almost all vote Tory and have huge demographic turnouts....
Half a million dead pensioners would be a 1-2 point swing to Labour.

 

[yorkie]

I certainly share the view that we are putting far too much of the burden on the younger generation but I don't want to stray too far off topic here, so if we can keep to the topic in hand that would be great, thanks.

 

[DB]

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

Where are they expecting all these buses to come from? Given that this will apply to every school in the country, and a large proportion of those outside of large cities (and possibly even within cities) will have some or a large proportion of the kids brought in by bus, has it not occurred to them that there might not be enough buses to go round?

 

[Richard Scott]

It's bonkers, the chances of it having a serious affect on a child is extremely low and even staff it's fairly remote. They have more chance being killed on the way to school and increasing traffic trying to get them to school is ridiculous. Not forgetting higher pollution, which can cause respiratory problems in youngsters as well as anyone else in the population. Absolute madness. Let's get them back in with a normal school day as this is out of all proportion, what are these actions teaching the younger generation?

 

[yorkie]

Where are they expecting all these buses to come from? Given that this will apply to every school in the country, and a large proportion of those outside of large cities (and possibly even within cities) will have some or a large proportion of the kids brought in by bus, has it not occurred to them that there might not be enough buses to go round?

Exactly; the more you look into this plan, the less sense it makes.

It's bonkers, the chances of it having a serious affect on a child is extremely low and even staff it's fairly remote. They have more chance being killed on the way to school and increasing traffic trying to get them to school is ridiculous. Not forgetting higher pollution, which can cause respiratory problems in youngsters as well as anyone else in the population. Absolute madness. Let's get them back in with a normal school day as this is out of all proportion, what are these actions teaching the younger generation?

Yes there is; this isn't about keeping kids safe. I think this tis about two things:
1) Trying to pander to the demands of those who want lockdowns, or other punitive/heavy-handed measures to be in place to restrict our lives for a long longer than is sensible and being seen to be "doing something"; and
2) Trying to avoid closing an entire school if an outbreak occurs

But it's just not sensible or practicable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

3) Trying to avoid potentially 1000+ sets of parents being removed from the economy for 14 days for one case?

 

[507021]

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

They're living in a dream world if they think there's going to be enough buses, and enough drivers to drive them, for each year group.

It just isn't happening.

 

[DB]

3) Trying to avoid potentially 1000+ sets of parents being removed from the economy for 14 days for one case?

Well, the answer to that is that they need to relax the paranoia across society, not just in schools.

 

[Huntergreed]

Well, the answer to that is that they need to relax the paranoia across society, not just in schools.

To be fair to the government, in stopping the briefings they've stopped their contribution to the 'paranoia', it's now just the media, but I don't see that stopping anytime soon (or not so soon).

 

[birchesgreen]

Where are they expecting all these buses to come from? Given that this will apply to every school in the country, and a large proportion of those outside of large cities (and possibly even within cities) will have some or a large proportion of the kids brought in by bus, has it not occurred to them that there might not be enough buses to go round?

Probably think they'll come from the same magical bus supply that many passengers think can and should be providing rail replacement services at the drop of a hat

 

[sjpowermac]

Who cares if the young don't get educated properly?

The strategy in this outbreak has been to protect pensioners at any cost.

The cynic might suggest that this is something to do with the fact that pensioners almost all vote Tory and have huge demographic turnouts....
Half a million dead pensioners would be a 1-2 point swing to Labour.

Which specific part of the government’s plan for September leads you to believe that young won’t be ‘educated properly’?

 

[thejuggler]

I caught the question about buses at the press conference, my daughter gets a school bus so the answer was important. The answer was waffle.

Our local area has buses to at least four different schools and some schools have 3-4 buses every morning. All are packed to the rafters, 80+ on a double decker. There is no way there is capacity to provide a service based on year groups. Just stopping to pick the children up would cause traffic gridlock!

 

[class387]

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

Agreed. To give an example of the scale of this problem our school usually needs 10 buses a day (across 6 routes) and each bus leaves full and standing, or leaves people behind, without fail every day. Even if they just have separate buses for Lower School, Upper School and Sixth Form that's 30 double deck buses. One for each year group would mean 70 buses and one of the highest PVRs in the country. It's literally impossible.

I'm also concerned about who uses specialist classrooms (science labs, DT workshops, music studios etc) - I assume these would have to be allocated to just one bubble, and extra curricular activities using them are off?

 

[Busaholic]

The cynic might suggest that this is something to do with the fact that pensioners almost all vote Tory and have huge demographic turnout

The same sort of 'fact' as that all pensioners have assets worth multi-millions, which is amazing considering the state pension, on which I for one is dependent, is one of the lowest in the developed world.

 

[johnnychips]

I caught the question about buses at the press conference, my daughter gets a school bus so the answer was important. The answer was waffle.

Our local area has buses to at least four different schools and some schools have 3-4 buses every morning. All are packed to the rafters, 80+ on a double decker. There is no way there is capacity to provide a service based on year groups. Just stopping to pick the children up would cause traffic gridlock!

Yes, this is nonsense. My theory, which I propounded to @yorkie last week, is that they want everybody back at school in September, and they have announced it now to get the idea in people’s heads. However, they have announced precautionary measures to satisfy the locktivists, who have no idea of the practicalities. Come the middle of August it will be announced that the measures are no longer necessary.

 

[BJames]

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

Look at this from BBC's newsround and in particular the below.

Coronavirus: How will school be different in September?

The government has announced detailed plans for schools reopening in England in September. Find out how going back to the classroom in the new term might be a little different…

www.bbc.co.uk

Travelling to and from school
The government wants children to walk or cycle to school, rather than take public transport, wherever they can.

For students who catch a school bus, the government have advised that where possible, 'bubbles' travel to and from school together.

"Bubbles" travel to and from school together"!?

Another perfect example of how this evidence has been crafted with no thought and no understanding of anything whatsoever. I assume the government understands that people living on the same road are often from different year groups and therefore different bubbles.

We have to return schools back in the normal way if the government expects all students to attend school full time, as it is the only way it will work. Seems that they'll only understand that this won't work when the kids actually go back in September.

 

[johnnychips]

^ My commute coincides with the only local Catholic secondary school. Double-decker buses from all over Doncaster, travelling from up to twelve miles out are packed out with kids of all ages. This is at the same time as kids from the two non-Catholic schools in the same direction (and the sixth-form college) are travelling on service buses if they don’t live in the local area. A lot of people knock First South Yorkshire: I think they do a good job, but the buses are heaving.

‘Bubbles together.’ B******s together, more like !

 

[SteveM70]

I think they want buses for each year group, or taxis where the numbers are low enough. It's going to cost a fortune and it's not really achieveable.

So a household with three kids at the same school live together but have to get separate buses to school. It serves literally no purpose whatsoever

 

[johnnychips]

^ Have you ever been with a friend who comes up with a really daft idea? You point out its shortcomings and say, ‘you really haven't thought this through, have you?’

That’s usually because of drink. These ideas are from experts: they have a clever idea that it is so impractical it will have to be dropped, but keeps people quiet at the moment - so not as daft as you might think.

And the moon landing was fake