Revealed: plans for schools in England from September 2020

[Bletchleyite]

I'm also concerned about who uses specialist classrooms (science labs, DT workshops, music studios etc) - I assume these would have to be allocated to just one bubble, and extra curricular activities using them are off?

I would say extra-curricular activities are likely to be off entirely anyway.

Regarding labs, you could rotate their use and clean between them.

 

[thejuggler]

Government must think we are still in a time which never existed when every child went to the school at the end of their street and walking or cycling was the obvious choice.

If you decide to give people a preference of schools don't be surprised when they choose schools which may not be local!

I agree that in a few weeks time the madness of an idea will be dropped.

 

[HSTEd]

Which specific part of the government’s plan for September leads you to believe that young won’t be ‘educated properly’?

Well leaving aside the magical bus problem, and the questionable capability to provide facilities with the restrictions they are putting in place.

That many months of education has already been sacrificed?

The same sort of 'fact' as that all pensioners have assets worth multi-millions, which is amazing considering the state pension, on which I for one is dependent, is one of the lowest in the developed world.

The demographic impacts on turnout and party vote are well recorded.

 

[sjpowermac]

Well leaving aside the magical bus problem, and the questionable capability to provide facilities with the restrictions they are putting in place.

That many months of education has already been sacrificed.

The ‘magical’ bus problem isn’t related to what will happen in classrooms in September.

Please do feel free to elaborate on what you mean by ‘questionable capability to provide facilities’. I suspect you are referring to science labs and DT rooms. There won’t be any problems at all with children using those rooms.

I’m not certain as to how your comments about older people relate to the plans for September. I do take your point though about voter turnout, but that’s hardly the fault of older people.

 

[sjpowermac]

In terms of extra curricular clubs:

A club for Year 7 students may involve students from different year groups helping out. For example if it was sport-related, then Year 8 - 10 sports leaders may be involved. If it was computer science related then Digital Leaders in Years 8 - 10 may be involved. Without the assistance of the older students, the teacher may not be able to run the activity. Also the younger students don't get to meet students in other years who share their interests. The older students don't get to develop their leadership skills.

Then there's the impact on Year 6 students. The activities that are part of their transition from primary to secondary were all cancelled when schools closed and have not resumed. Loads of older students were looking forward to helping those students when they get to Year 7, showing them round the school, helping them etc.

Parents of children who are among only a handful from their primary school are very keen for their children to get to meet other children in a similar position, and understandably so, and students already at secondary school who went to the same primary are keen to help, but yet none of that can happen. This is causing some children, and their parents, to be extremely stressed and worried.

Staggered break and lunch times could be achieved if you recruit sufficient midday staff to work in schools, in theory. It would cost a lot of money and cause all sorts of other problems.

But lesson changeovers seem impossible to me. You cannot have different lesson changeover times for different year groups, so if the changeover time is the same, then students are going to be mixing in the corridors. How can they get around that? I can't think of any practicable way, so it falls down at the most basic of hurdles.

It's difficult for me to contain my anger at the fact that some people think this is actually a good idea. I'd like to have an argument with those people! That's the full argument, not the 5 minute argument

I don’t think anyone is quite sure as to how literally these ‘plans’ are intended to be taken.

I think what happens on the ground will be little more than what most schools already have in place for a wet lunchtime. Even for ordinary lunchtimes, many schools allow access to catering one year group at a time.

Lesson changeover will be mitigated by some sort of ‘one-way’ system on corridors.

The school transport one is interesting, but I suspect will eventually be sorted by there not being any extra buses and children being told to sit in year groups (something I’d imagine is already in place on some school buses).

It simply isn’t practical to keep year groups completely apart at all times in a busy secondary school. A few small tweaks here and there will give the impression of ‘doing something’ and when written down in a risk assessment they will sound impressive.

I read the document as being hedged with a fair amount of leeway, which I’m sure (sensible) schools will take.

 

[Bayum]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, particularly in secondary. In my own head, one of the things I’d potentially consider is whether the children have a break at all. Reduces the need for staggered breaks across school and gives a little more time for staggered movements between lessons. Lunches and the like are going to be a nightmare. Quite how they can get hot dinners bought and served for a whole year group and allow them to eat in such a short time is going to be difficult. Again, potentially reducing this to the shortest time possible, or perhaps even removing and finishing early at the end of the day could be a consideration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, particularly in secondary. In my own head, one of the things I’d potentially consider is whether the children have a break at all. Reduces the need for staggered breaks across school and gives a little more time for staggered movements between lessons. Lunches and the like are going to be a nightmare. Quite how they can get hot dinners bought and served for a whole year group and allow them to eat in such a short time is going to be difficult. Again, potentially reducing this to the shortest time possible, or perhaps even removing and finishing early at the end of the day could be a consideration.

Do they need to do hot dinners? Sandwiches could be eaten in classrooms, and would only need to be provided for those on free meals which is not always a large proportion.

 

[Richard Scott]

Do they need to do hot dinners? Sandwiches could be eaten in classrooms, and would only need to be provided for those on free meals which is not always a large proportion.

You trying dealing with 30 pupils who've not been anywhere and had a chance to burn off some energy - good luck!!

 

[sjpowermac]

Do they need to do hot dinners? Sandwiches could be eaten in classrooms, and would only need to be provided for those on free meals which is not always a large proportion.

I think many posters are envisioning pupils being separated into different parts of a school. I could be wrong, but doubt that’s what the government intend or schools will deliver...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think many posters are envisioning pupils being separated into different parts of a school. I could be wrong, but doubt that’s what the government intend or schools will deliver...

I'm not clear how that prevents the eating of sandwiches, be they school supplied or brought in?

 

[sjpowermac]

I'm not clear how that prevents the eating of sandwiches, be they school supplied or brought in?

It doesn’t, but I think hot food will be served as normal. I think many posters are making far more of the guidelines than necessary. I strongly suspect that schools will operate largely as normal.

 

[The Ham]

Do they need to do hot dinners? Sandwiches could be eaten in classrooms, and would only need to be provided for those on free meals which is not always a large proportion.

Depends on the age, Year R & KS1 children are all entitled to free school meals.

Our local infant school has confirmed that they are banning home made lunches for the time being to limit the number of things brought into the setting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the age, Year R & KS1 children are all entitled to free school meals.

Our local infant school has confirmed that they are banning home made lunches for the time being to limit the number of things brought into the setting.

Is there any reason that those meals could not be provided as packaged sandwiches for consumption in the classroom? I can't see one.

(All I see here is people putting up barriers to what seems a very reasonable concept - a bit like the way the railway does!)

 

[DB]

Is there any reason that those meals could not be provided as packaged sandwiches for consumption in the classroom? I can't see one.

(All I see here is people putting up barriers to what seems a very reasonable concept - a bit like the way the railway does!)

The original point of free school meals was to provide a hot meal for kids who might not otherwise get one.

 

[DB]

I read the document as being hedged with a fair amount of leeway, which I’m sure (sensible) schools will take.

The point is that throughout this situation, the jobsworths and paranoid have interpreted "guidance" as being "rules set in stone", and where there is leeway or a scale they always go for the most extreme interpretation. If this guidance remains in place, and schools don't follow it to the letter (and the most extreme interpretation), it will be days at most before a number of locktivists are keeping little Johnny off school because it's not "safe" and screaming to the Daily Mail that schools are putting children at risk.

 

[Huntergreed]

Is there any reason that those meals could not be provided as packaged sandwiches for consumption in the classroom? I can't see one.

(All I see here is people putting up barriers to what seems a very reasonable concept - a bit like the way the railway does!)

No there isn’t any reason why we couldn’t just use pre packaged sandwiches.

However, for many children, particularly those from poorer backgrounds, the only hot meal they will eat in a day is their hot school dinner. Is it really morally correct to stop this ‘just make it easier’ and to reduce the risk level from 0.0000002 to 0.0000001?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The original point of free school meals was to provide a hot meal for kids who might not otherwise get one.

This is an exceptional situation, and nobody is going to die merely because the nutritious meal they get isn't hot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, for many children, particularly those from poorer backgrounds, the only hot meal they will eat in a day is their hot school dinner. Is it really morally correct to stop this ‘just make it easier’ and to reduce the risk level from 0.0000002 to 0.0000001?

Yes. It is a very minor thing. Sandwiches can be of very high quality these days.

 

[DB]

This is an exceptional situation, and nobody is going to die merely because the nutritious meal they get isn't hot.

If there was a good justification for not being able to provide hot meals that would be fair enough - but in this case this really doesn't apply.

Yes. It is a very minor thing. Sandwiches can be of very high quality these days.

So far as I'm aware sandwiches these days are no different to sandwiches at any other time. And while they can be very high quality, I think we can probably assume that the ones provided in this sort of circumstance wil be pre-pack, manufactured in an indusrial food plant from the cheapest ingredients!

 

[sjpowermac]

No there isn’t any reason why we couldn’t just use pre packaged sandwiches.

However, for many children, particularly those from poorer backgrounds, the only hot meal they will eat in a day is their hot school dinner. Is it really morally correct to stop this ‘just make it easier’ and to reduce the risk level from 0.0000002 to 0.0000001?

It would be very surprising if school catering were not to operate as normal, with hot meals provided. Quite rightly too.

Certainly in the schools that I know of, hot meals have been provided for children attending school throughout the lockdown.

I’m not sure why anyone thinks school catering will be affected.

 

[sjpowermac]

The point is that throughout this situation, the jobsworths and paranoid have interpreted "guidance" as being "rules set in stone", and where there is leeway or a scale they always go for the most extreme interpretation. If this guidance remains in place, and schools don't follow it to the letter (and the most extreme interpretation), it will be days at most before a number of locktivists are keeping little Johnny off school because it's not "safe" and screaming to the Daily Mail that schools are putting children at risk.

I think the emotional language you are using there is very unhelpful.

Let’s see what happens, but school timetables have already been written for next year and I’m doubtful there will be large scale changes for September.

 

[DB]

I think the emotional language you are using there is very unhelpful.

Let’s see what happens, but school timetables have already been written for next year and I’m doubtful there will be large scale changes for September.

I'm sorry? What emotional language?

 

[sjpowermac]

I'm sorry? What emotional language?

‘Locktivist’, what a horrible term. I’m not sure it’s helpful and seems to have become a way of mocking others.

 

[DB]

‘Locktivist’, what a horrible term. I’m not sure it’s helpful and seems to have become a way of mocking others.

It's a quick way to refer to people who take the extreme view about restrictions - not sure that there's any other term which easilt conveys this.

 

[sjpowermac]

It's a quick way to refer to people who take the extreme view about restrictions - not sure that there's any other term which easilt conveys this.

Have it your way. I suspect this thread will go the same way as most of the others and simply become an echo chamber for Exiteers, rather than a sensible discussion. See what I did there?

The reality is that many are getting on with their lives as best they can. We had all sorts of ridiculous posts about ‘militant teachers/unions’ on one of the threads. The reality was that the majority of primaries opened when they were told to, similarly with secondary schools for Years 10 and 12.

I can’t see any reason to suppose that schools will not fully re-open in September, albeit with relatively minor changes to the way they operate.

 

[SteveM70]

Has anything been said about cleaning classrooms between lessons? Not an issue in primary schools because all teaching happens in a single room, but at secondary schools all the sciences for example are taught in labs with access to specialist equipment.

 

[Enthusiast]

The point is that throughout this situation, the jobsworths and paranoid have interpreted "guidance" as being "rules set in stone", and where there is leeway or a scale they always go for the most extreme interpretation. If this guidance remains in place, and schools don't follow it to the letter (and the most extreme interpretation), it will be days at most before a number of locktivists are keeping little Johnny off school because it's not "safe" and screaming to the Daily Mail that schools are putting children at risk.

I think the emotional language you are using there is very unhelpful.

I don't think it's unhelpful at all.

Throughout this fiasco there has been ample evidence of guidance being interpreted as law and some organisations going to ridiculous lengths to accommodate the guidance at all costs and not simply where possible and practical. Some of the worst examples come from the very organisations tasked (for a reason which still escapes me) with ensuring children are educated - i.e. Local Authorities. In my area they have taken to narrowing already inadequate roads to provide wider pavements. This morning I noticed further constrictions being installed in the incredibly narrow High Street. These have been placed near restaurants and the two pubs, presumably in case people spill on to the pavements whilst "socially distancing." Local Authorities are masters of the art of "gold plating" regulations. If and when schools open it will be their people who interpret the "guidance" and police compliance. If it cannot be accommodated 100% the school will not be fully operational.

 

[sjpowermac]

I don't think it's unhelpful at all.

Throughout this fiasco there has been ample evidence of guidance being interpreted as law and some organisations going to ridiculous lengths to accommodate the guidance at all costs and not simply where possible and practical. Some of the worst examples come from the very organisations tasked (for a reason which still escapes me) with ensuring children are educated - i.e. Local Authorities. In my area they have taken to narrowing already inadequate roads to provide wider pavements. This morning I noticed further constrictions being installed in the incredibly narrow High Street. These have been placed near restaurants and the two pubs, presumably in case people spill on to the pavements whilst "socially distancing." Local Authorities are masters of the art of "gold plating" regulations. If and when schools open it will be their people who interpret the "guidance" and police compliance. If it cannot be accommodated 100% the school will not be fully operational.

The vast majority of secondary schools have been open (in some shape or form) since 15th June for Years 10 and 12: exactly as the government requested. Many posters on this forum claimed that it wouldn’t happen for the same sort of reasons you are now claiming will cause problems in September.

In addition, did you see those hoards of militant teachers picketing schools during June? No, me neither, yet there were people on this forum claiming that unions were preventing children returning to school.

I’m not sure if it’s escaped your notice, but over 60% of secondary schools are now academies and as such have very little to do with LEAs.

Primary schools won’t see much change at all as a result of this guidance: their ‘bubbles’ will be the classes they are usually taught in.

Have you actually read through the guidance? If not, here’s a link for you:

[Withdrawn] Actions for schools during the coronavirus outbreak

What all schools will need to do during the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic.

www.gov.uk

Since it’s ‘bubbles’ that seem to be causing the greatest upset I’ve copied (what I think is) an important section:

“Whatever the size of the group, they should be kept apart from other groups where possible and older children should be encouraged to keep their distance within groups.”

In fairness to the government, I think ‘where possible’ recognises that physical separation of bubbles is unlikely to be possible at all times.


It‘s really disappointing that you’ve chosen to criticise schools before any of them have even had chance to publish how they will implement this guidance. A lot of people are working hard to make the full re-opening of schools happen, just as they did to keep schools open for the children of key workers and for welcoming back Years 10 and 12 in June.

 

[Enthusiast]

yet there were people on this forum claiming that unions were preventing children returning to school.

Not me. I've no idea who prevented schools from opening. All I know is that they did not open, despite the government suggesting they should. I don't count those that are currently performing child minding duties as open.

Have you actually read through the guidance?

No. I've had a glance at it now and quite frankly it's 60 pages of instructions to people who should need no such instructions. Why they should need guidance on "Pastoral Care" and the curriculum is a mystery. That's surely what schools do. Two or three pages of sensible but practical suggestions to take reasonable precautions should be all that is necessary.

In fairness to the government, I think ‘where possible’ recognises that physical separation of bubbles is unlikely to be possible at all times.

It isn't what the government recognises that counts. It's the people who interpret the guidance who matter. If anybody believes they have a cat in hell's chance of keeping children "socially distanced" they are deluding themselves and much of the guidance is a complete waste of time. The delay in getting schools back up and running is probably the biggest scandal of this entire business. Essential shops managed to get themselves into gear within a day or two of the lockdown. It wasn't perfect and it still isn't but it works and, apart from the brief period when idiot panic buyers grabbed anything they could lay their hands on, most people got most of their requirements. Yes, their problems are different to those of the schools but equally challenging, if not more so in some respects.

Looking at the incredible verbosity of the guidelines I am not surprised the schools have remained closed for so long and equally unsurprised they need another three months to implement them. Shops managed to continue trading without the luxury of such detailed guidelines; their managers and staff simply got on with it. Governors, head teachers and teachers manage schools and if many of them are as independent as you say then I fail to understand why they need to wait for sixty pages of superfluous gumpf before cracking on. As I've said before, if the supermarkets behaved like the schools we'd have all died of starvation by now.

 

[sjpowermac]

Not me. I've no idea who prevented schools from opening. All I know is that they did not open, despite the government suggesting they should. I don't count those that are currently performing child minding duties as open.

No. I've had a glance at it now and quite frankly it's 60 pages of instructions to people who should need no such instructions. Why they should need guidance on "Pastoral Care" and the curriculum is a mystery. That's surely what schools do. Two or three pages of sensible but practical suggestions to take reasonable precautions should be all that is necessary.

It isn't what the government recognises that counts. It's the people who interpret the guidance who matter. If anybody believes they have a cat in hell's chance of keeping children "socially distanced" they are deluding themselves and much of the guidance is a complete waste of time. The delay in getting schools back up and running is probably the biggest scandal of this entire business. Essential shops managed to get themselves into gear within a day or two of the lockdown. It wasn't perfect and it still isn't but it works and, apart from the brief period when idiot panic buyers grabbed anything they could lay their hands on, most people got most of their requirements. Yes, their problems are different to those of the schools but equally challenging, if not more so in some respects.

Looking at the incredible verbosity of the guidelines I am not surprised the schools have remained closed for so long and equally unsurprised they need another three months to implement them. Shops managed to continue trading without the luxury of such detailed guidelines; their managers and staff simply got on with it. Governors, head teachers and teachers manage schools and if many of them are as independent as you say then I fail to understand why they need to wait for sixty pages of superfluous gumpf before cracking on. As I've said before, if the supermarkets behaved like the schools we'd have all died of starvation by now.

I’ve already presented you with all the facts relating to the opening of schools.

In your first post addressed to me you expressed concern that at a local level guidance would be interpreted very strictly. In your current reply, you complain as to why schools need such detailed guidance, leaving them with little room to think for themselves. Which is it that you would prefer?

Regarding what’s going on in schools currently, we have Year 1 and Year 6 receiving lessons as normal. Year 10 and Year 12 are also having lessons. I fail to see how you have taken this to be ‘child minding’.

Regarding social distancing of children, the government guidance specifically deals with this and recognises that it’s all but impossible. So, I’m at a loss as to why you mentioned there’s not a chance of social distancing happening, nobody is saying there is.

Regarding ‘cracking on’: are you seriously suggesting that schools should have opened to all students before the government told them to do so?

I can tell you for a fact that not all shops ‘simply got on’ with it without any guidance. I know two store managers: the larger private sector companies have been every bit as good as the government in producing verbose guidance. Guidance for pubs runs to 46 pages!

Naturally, I can’t speak for all schools in all areas, and I’m sorry if schools in your own area have not made the same efforts as the ones I know of.