Revenue collection - have LNER given up?

[DH1Commuter]

In the last two weeks I have travelled through Newcastle Central from an ungated station (Durham) twice daily, 5 days a week. I've also made a return journey to London.

In this period, I've had my ticket checked twice, and once only, on the two mornings the gates at NCL have been in action, the other mornings walking through open gates at NCL, whilst red-coated LNER staff look on; this at times when TPE, LNER and XC all disgorge large numbers of passengers in rapid succession in the morning, then again at evening commuter hours. The London journeys? Other than the trolley service, no staff seen. This seems odd as, until recently, NCL tended to have a closed gate-line at peak hours, and on Friday/Saturday evenings for the boozers it extended this.

Does anyone know if this is deliberate and LNER have calculated that the lost revenue is less than the cost of staff working the gate-line, or have any other suggestions? Certainly at present, I'd suggest that there is an economic logic to travelling ticketless and buying at NCL on the rare occasions the gate-line is working (I have an annual ticket, so speak as an observer rather than as a fare-evader), and that this is likely to the detriment of the TOCs.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Durham - Newcastle is a relatively small journey, if the gates are open at both ends I can see how it would be easy to fare evade. I've travelled four times this week between Berwick & Darlington, and each time I've had my ticket checked twice - so maybe they're more interested about who's onboard than who's passing through gates for other services.

 

[yorkie]

I've done a few LNER journeys recently where I did not see any sign of the Guard, which was almost unheard of* before.

(* On LNER, that is! Of course this is absolutely normal on TPE/Northern most evenings)

 

[Kite159]

Durham - Newcastle is a relatively small journey, if the gates are open at both ends I can see how it would be easy to fare evade. I've travelled four times this week between Berwick & Darlington, and each time I've had my ticket checked twice - so maybe they're more interested about who's onboard than who's passing through gates for other services.

The gates at Durham were removed last year (if not earlier this year).

And besides gates only will say if a ticket is valid at that station, not if that ticket was valid for the journey being made. Single from Manors anyone?

 

[dk1]

Wheras I have used LNER several times so far this week & ticket checks have been conducted on every service. Today the ticket gates where also operational at Peterborough.

 

[Essexman]

I've wondered the same about GWR.
Travelled Paddington to Torquay and back in last few days and no checks at all on train or at stations.
The only check I had on the trip was when I boarded at Ivybridge and the guard walked through the four coach train before we'd reached Totnes.

 

[Dave91131]

I think on board ticket checks depend on the member of staff. As a regular traveller on the southern half of the LNER route I have noticed that some will be constantly up and down the train requesting 'tickets from A or B' followed later by 'tickets from C or D', others will pass through once or twice requesting 'any unchecked tickets', and some will not be seen at all.

Over the years I've begun to recognise which ones fall in to which of the 3 categories - there's also a 4th category which only contains one staff member, who likes to give a firm thumb rub on anything written in ink on a season ticket / pass / rover to make sure it doesn't rub off.

 

[johntea]

I've never seen that many ticket checks on services from Leeds to London or vice versa over the years, be it LNER, VTEC, EC etc...how are the barriers at Kings Cross these days?

I suspect fare dodging wouldn't be as common on a 'long distance' ticket compared to local stopping services, but I may be wrong!

 

[cactustwirly]

Well on EMT a ticket check is common between London & Leicester, but rare north of Leicester

 

[sheff1]

..how are the barriers at Kings Cross these days?

I have cut through KGX half a dozen times in the past couple of weeks and the barriers were open every time. In contrast, those at St Pancras (EMT) were in use on all but one occasion.

 

[cuccir]

I don't think ticket checks are any less common now on LNER between Durham and Newcastle than they have been under VTEC/East Coast/National Express. Short journey, long trains.

That said, there must be an amount of fare evasion due to lack of checks and people buying when challenged - all 4 TOCs seem happy to sell tickets on board when people board at Durham. And I've never seen an RPI at either station, from any TOC - though again, all of this predates LNER.

 

[Intermodal]

Wheras I have used LNER several times so far this week & ticket checks have been conducted on every service. Today the ticket gates where also operational at Peterborough.

I echo this - used LNER every day this week and had ticket checks take place on every one.

 

[Antman]

I think on board ticket checks depend on the member of staff. As a regular traveller on the southern half of the LNER route I have noticed that some will be constantly up and down the train requesting 'tickets from A or B' followed later by 'tickets from C or D', others will pass through once or twice requesting 'any unchecked tickets', and some will not be seen at all.

Over the years I've begun to recognise which ones fall in to which of the 3 categories - there's also a 4th category which only contains one staff member, who likes to give a firm thumb rub on anything written in ink on a season ticket / pass / rover to make sure it doesn't rub off.

I've found that with various operators that it depends on the attitude of the member of staff concerned. I've always thought asking for "any unchecked tickets" is a bit pointless as surely any fare dodgers will just keep quiet?

 

[FQTV]

The rationale for removing the gates at Durham was, publicly, that gatelines at Newcastle and Darlington would ‘protect’ the short journey revenues (12 minutes between Durham and Newcastle, with up to nine coaches).

The practical effect was, however or in addition, that Virgin Trains East Coast (as was) could make the gateline positions at Durham redundant.

They could also finally agree terms with a tenant for the former WH Smith Wholesale premises, which they and East Coast before them had been unable to do because the unit was unviable as long as it ‘straddled’ the gateline.

So they’ve reduced the wage bill and increased rental income.

If, however, they are further reducing the wage bill by not staffing the gateline at Newcastle then, of course, there’s a risk that fare evasion will outweigh any other savings.

It could also be speculated that the appalling reliability of the ticket machines, with no ticket office on Platform Two at Durham, probably exacerbates the level of ‘missing’ revenue.

Anecdotally, however, I’m aware that in the past (pre gates) the big losses on the Darlington > Durham > Newcastle sectors was quite ‘white collar’, with daily commuters evading using expired weeklies etc., being some of the biggest culprits. On occasion, it was railway office employees commuting themselves who spotted oddities and raised the alarm. Cursory ticket checks weren’t apparently working in those cases.

 

[Bantamzen]

Last week there was a revenue check on one of the 06:30 Bradford FS - London KX services between Shipley & Leeds. So I don't think they've totally given up, perhaps just different guards with different routines?

 

[yorkie]

There seems to be more revenue inspectors but fewer checks by Guards.

 

[wils180]

I've always thought asking for "any unchecked tickets" is a bit pointless as surely any fare dodgers will just keep quiet?

on such long trains with frequent stops the only alternative would be “any tickets from station, station, station or station” if you didn’t manage to get through after every one- it just gets a bit much. Even with 20-30 minute intervals you may only clear one or two full coaches in that time, so I don’t think ‘any unchecked tickets’ is too unreasonable. That said though, with regard to LNER; Ive only ever seen the gateline at Kings Cross in operation once in my approx 15 return trips from there in the past six months! It must be frustrating for the onboard staff

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Its funny that because I have travelled KGX - Waverley and tickets have been checked after every stop more a less on Saturday. The Train Manager checked leaving Kings Cross, and then different RPOs boarded at Peterborough, York and I believe Newcastle. However they were simply asking for any tickets from the last station. Perhaps it was just luck of the draw, that Revenue Officers chose that service at every stop.

 

[sprunt]

A similar situation regarding on-train checks has arisen between Manchester Piccadilly and Euston. Since the installation of gates at Piccadilly, I could likely have travelled on the train before the one I booked on my Advance - on both trips I got there while the previous train was still on the opposite platform and there wasn't an on-train check on my train. It's not a huge sample size, but I can't see why it's any more likely there was a check on the other train.

 

[Antman]

on such long trains with frequent stops the only alternative would be “any tickets from station, station, station or station” if you didn’t manage to get through after every one- it just gets a bit much. Even with 20-30 minute intervals you may only clear one or two full coaches in that time, so I don’t think ‘any unchecked tickets’ is too unreasonable. That said though, with regard to LNER; Ive only ever seen the gateline at Kings Cross in operation once in my approx 15 return trips from there in the past six months! It must be frustrating for the onboard staff

Yes I can understand why they ask for any unchecked tickets. I can't recall ever seeing the ticket gates at Kings Cross in operation in fact I wonder what the point was of installing them.

 

[Intermodal]

Yes I can understand why they ask for any unchecked tickets. I can't recall ever seeing the ticket gates at Kings Cross in operation in fact I wonder what the point was of installing them.

Perhaps it was a franchise commitment to install gates but not a commitment to use them?

 

[Antman]

Perhaps it was a franchise commitment to install gates but not a commitment to use them?

Maybe? Sounds like some not very joined up thinking.

 

[Intermodal]

Maybe? Sounds like some not very joined up thinking.

Well, this is the railway you are talking about.

 

[35B]

Yes I can understand why they ask for any unchecked tickets. I can't recall ever seeing the ticket gates at Kings Cross in operation in fact I wonder what the point was of installing them.

You may well ask. My experience is that they are almost always in use when I arrive, with too many out of use and two train loads disgorging through them.

 

[xotGD]

OK, today:

Ticket checked this morning, gates closed at KX.

On the return, gates closed at KX, ticket checked on the train.

 

[LowLevel]

I've found that with various operators that it depends on the attitude of the member of staff concerned. I've always thought asking for "any unchecked tickets" is a bit pointless as surely any fare dodgers will just keep quiet?

Depends why you're checking tickets. For guards it's as much about being visible and providing an opening point for the passenger to ask any questions they might want or you to give advice/note any connections that might be impacted by delays (example - some of my trains have multi stage connections on to Heart of Wales services which can go very wrong and lead to hundreds of mile detours to start at the other end to get back on track). I generally do one full check per journey and several piece meal 'tickets from' checks as I can't remember every face on a 300 seat train. This can be supplemented by revenue protection boarding en route and doing their own inspection.

I work pay trains and longer distance regional services very differently.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Depends why you're checking tickets. For guards it's as much about being visible and providing an opening point for the passenger to ask any questions they might want or you to give advice/note any connections that might be impacted by delays (example - some of my trains have multi stage connections on to Heart of Wales services which can go very wrong and lead to hundreds of mile detours to start at the other end to get back on track). I generally do one full check per journey and several piece meal 'tickets from' checks as I can't remember every face on a 300 seat train. This can be supplemented by revenue protection boarding en route and doing their own inspection.

I work pay trains and longer distance regional services very differently.

Are there ever any trains which, as a general rule, you simply won't check tickets on? E.g. after a certain time in the evening, very early in the morning?

 

[mmh]

Ive only ever seen the gateline at Kings Cross in operation once in my approx 15 return trips from there in the past six months! It must be frustrating for the onboard staff

I'm not sure why the onboard staff would care?

 

[Chrism20]

I’m a season ticket holder between Edinburgh & Newcastle and it’s very rare for tickets not to be checked.

I’m off to London today and am on the 0900 from Edinburgh. There was one Train Manager from there to Newcastle but there are three from Newcastle onwards. Two appear to be trainees though.

 

[LowLevel]

Are there ever any trains which, as a general rule, you simply won't check tickets on? E.g. after a certain time in the evening, very early in the morning?

The only trains I won't check tickets on are the ones where we have police and security boarding controls on the door on Friday and Saturday. No ticket on arrival at the door = no travel. There's usually at least one drunken arrest as a consequence. There have been cases of guards getting into nasty situations with people who have had their friends left behind and then see the guard with a ticket machine on board selling tickets at out stations. These trains tend to mostly be dropping off anyway, and every station on the route has a vending machine. Consequently the machine stays in the cab but I still patrol the train with the security officers.

Otherwise no. You'll find me cheerfully wandering down the train at 2330 on a Saturday night out of Sheffield selling tickets to the Chesterfield crowd or only opening one door on the first train on a Saturday morning selling tickets on the way in to any all nighters off home.

I'm far from a shrinking violet but I rarely get into trouble, every couple of years maybe I have a serious ding dong with someone. Attitude and approach are the answer.

I pay in some pretty impressive sums of money as well.