Revenue Protection Inspectors Your Rights?

packermac

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I will preface this by saying I do not in anyway condone fare evasion, but I have read enough stories on this forum to know that they are not all due to the passenger.
I must admit have never seen one from a current TOC, I am not here talking about uniform staff, guards etc but plain clothes RPI's.
Back in the days before TFL operated to Clapham Junction I was asked by a London Underground RPI for my ticket to access the platform on the Southern from the bridge. I suggested his LU id in this instance was about the same as my airport one. He said he had been seconded and his supervisor was called who apologised and said he should have been given a letter to show his secondment along with his id.
Now on the tube where I saw them in action a few times, they usually put on an id as the train pulled out of the station.
Do TOC ones work the same way?
Do I have a right to demand to see an id if one is not presented to me?
Do I have the right to demand and take down the name of the person?
Am I allowed to record video or photograph and conversation? It would appear from the dispute threads that the TOC will never go against the view of the RPI so this would appear to be the only way to achieve accuracy.

I do realise that most RPI's would follow the rules but any group will have individuals who are not so well trained, are just difficult, or do not follow the rules.
I see the same with the Dorset Council parking enforcement officers who do not follow the Dft parking regulations,seem to make up rules on the hoof and when challenged (by me as a concerned resident, not the vehicle owner) get met with "because we can" or "that's what we do" type responses. Even contacting the council generates zero response.

It is always good to know where you stand.
 
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Bertie the bus

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Do I have a right to demand to see an id if one is not presented to me?
Do I have the right to demand and take down the name of the person?
Am I allowed to record video or photograph and conversation? It would appear from the dispute threads that the TOC will never go against the view of the RPI so this would appear to be the only way to achieve accuracy.
This in no way answers your questions but why would you want to do any of those things? Why not just act like a normal person and show them your ticket and they will just move on to the next person?
 

BigCj34

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Seems reasonable to ask for ID of a plain clothed RPI, you could reasonably assume it is a random member of the public otherwise who is harassing you.
 

RJ

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This in no way answers your questions but why would you want to do any of those things? Why not just act like a normal person and show them your ticket and they will just move on to the next person?
It's important that people in these roles have the appropriate ID on display. Otherwise it could be anyone pulling any one of a myriad of scams.
 

Bertie the bus

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I can't think of a single scam anybody could pull from simply seeing a ticket. If someone who saw my ticket claimed it wasn't valid and demanded money or personal information then I wouldn't give either without verification but that isn't what the OP asked. He was asking could he demand various things before showing his ticket. I still don't understand why anybody would want or need to do that.
 

matt_world2004

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I can't think of a single scam anybody could pull from simply seeing a ticket. If someone who saw my ticket claimed it wasn't valid and demanded money or personal information then I wouldn't give either without verification but that isn't what the OP asked. He was asking could he demand various things before showing his ticket. I still don't understand why anybody would want or need to do that.
Contactless skimming
 

Clip

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Yeah. But I would be suspicious of someone at a non lu station demanding to see tickets for a southern service while working for lul.

Worth noting that Clapham has TfL services so could be from one of them but i get what you are saying
 

Puffing Devil

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I understand that someone being interviewed by British Transport Police at a railway station about alleged faredodging now has the right to request free legal advice from the Defence Solicitor Contact Centre - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/voluntary-police-interview-your-rights

Would someone being interviewed by revenue protection inspectors in the same circumstances have the same right?
Those rights are for attending a voluntary interview at the police station, not questions under caution.
 

Puffing Devil

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PACE Code C (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pace-code-c-2018) has changed and Section 3(D) explains that those rights apply to all voluntary interviews, regardless of the venue. What I don't know is whether RPIs follow those same rules as the police.
Attending is the key word here. This are rules are for those being interviewed formally by invitation, not questioned immediately after being stopped.
 

sheff1

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This in no way answers your questions but why would you want to do any of those things? Why not just act like a normal person and show them your ticket and they will just move on to the next person?
If you are happy to show your ticket to a random unidentified person you are free to do so.

In practice, when I have been approached by a plain clothes inspector at home or (far more often) abroad they have always shown/displayed ID at the same time as asking for the ticket.
 

MikeWh

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Back in the days before TFL operated to Clapham Junction I was asked by a London Underground RPI for my ticket to access the platform on the Southern from the bridge.
Worth noting that Clapham has TfL services so could be from one of them but i get what you are saying
It didn't at the time in question.
 

farleigh

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Recording/videoing any conversation is entirely legal as far as I know and would provide a useful record of any conversation.
 

kingston

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Except you can be asked to stop and failing to do so would likely result in your removal from the station premises.
This is incorrect.

If you believe there is a railway byelaw or (less importantly) term in the NRCoC that prohibits filming please quote it.
 

Kilopylae

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This is incorrect.

If you believe there is a railway byelaw or (less importantly) term in the NRCoC that prohibits filming please quote it.
There's certainly a byelaw that gives officers of the railway the right to remove you without your having violated a byelaw.

Byelaw 13(2): "No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person"
 

island

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This is incorrect.

If you believe there is a railway byelaw or (less importantly) term in the NRCoC that prohibits filming please quote it.
6 (8) will cover the situation, as will 12 (2) or 13 (2).

More generally, the railway is private property to which members of the public have access only by implied licence, and that licence may be revoked, generally or with respect to one or more persons, at which point those persons must leave promptly or become trespassers.

More generally still, pulling out a phone and starting to take photos or videos of members of staff tends to escalate rather than defuse confrontations.
 

sefton

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There's certainly a byelaw that gives officers of the railway the right to remove you without your having violated a byelaw.

Byelaw 13(2): "No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person"
Waiting to catch a train isn't loitering.
 

Baxenden Bank

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6 (8) will cover the situation, as will 12 (2) or 13 (2).

More generally, the railway is private property to which members of the public have access only by implied licence, and that licence may be revoked, generally or with respect to one or more persons, at which point those persons must leave promptly or become trespassers.

More generally still, pulling out a phone and starting to take photos or videos of members of staff tends to escalate rather than defuse confrontations.
So why is it acceptable for rail staff to film the public without their consent (with bodycams) but not for passengers to film rail staff in the same manner?

I think you will find that anyone can film anyone else in a public place, within sensible limits. Sticking your camera right in someone's face would not be acceptable from either staff or customer. Filming from a seated position is entirely reasonable. If the staff member does not wish to be filmed they can politely ask (and accept the same refusal that a passenger would get if they had asked the staff member to turn off their bodycam), or they can move along to the next customer.
 

bramling

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You can be asked to leave private property. And reasonable force can be used to remove you if you refuse.
Staff can't just ask people to leave without a good reason though. Taking a dislike to someone isn't such a reason, and realistically with the proliferation of CCTV it's harder to manufacture a false justification.
 

bramling

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So why is it acceptable for rail staff to film the public without their consent (with bodycams) but not for passengers to film rail staff in the same manner?

I think you will find that anyone can film anyone else in a public place, within sensible limits. Sticking your camera right in someone's face would not be acceptable from either staff or customer. Filming from a seated position is entirely reasonable. If the staff member does not wish to be filmed they can politely ask (and accept the same refusal that a passenger would get if they had asked the staff member to turn off their bodycam), or they can move along to the next customer.
The railway isn't a public place as such - it's technically private property.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of bodycams. In my view they're highly provocative, and many people quite reasonably aren't keen on having themselves filmed at close range. Personally I'd be tempted to refuse to have *any* interaction with anyone using a bodycam.

I don't have a problem with them being present and able to be utilised should things turn nasty, but this should be for exceptional situations only.

It must make for a strained relationship between staff too.
 

island

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Staff can't just ask people to leave without a good reason though. Taking a dislike to someone isn't such a reason, and realistically with the proliferation of CCTV it's harder to manufacture a false justification.
Yes, they can. The railway is private property.
 

sheff1

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Sticking your camera right in someone's face would not be acceptable from either staff or customer.
There is at least one TPE conductor who stands over seated passengers with a bodycam at passenger face height.

.... I'm not a fan of bodycams. In my view they're highly provocative, and many people quite reasonably aren't keen on having themselves filmed at close range. Personally I'd be tempted to refuse to have *any* interaction with anyone using a bodycam.
Quite .... when the above TPE conductor approached me I stood up before presenting my ticket which could possibly be interpreted as being an aggressive action even though it was merely a desire not to have a camera in my face.
 

bramling

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Yes, they can. The railway is private property.
And when the passenger complains and the member of staff is called in for an interview, the first question they'll be asked is to explain what the reason was.

It may well be private property, but a member of staff doesn't own the property and can't make up their own rules.
 

bramling

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There is at least one TPE conductor who stands over seated passengers with a bodycam at passenger face height.



Quite .... when the above TPE conductor approached me I stood up before presenting my ticket which could possibly be interpreted as being an aggressive action even though it was merely a desire not to have a camera in my face.
Where I am we have a few staff who have been eager to jump on the bodycam bandwagon. Surprisingly enough, they're all people regarded as trouble-stirring idiots.
 

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