Revenue protection took my details - Unstaffed station

[johntea]

So this week I don't have my usual MetroCard as I'm waiting until next week to renew it due to not being in work half this week.

Anyway I travel from Castleford to Saltaire, both unstaffed stations. I catch the 07:55 from Castleford to Leeds then the 08:26 Leeds to Saltaire - so a very tight connection otherwise I would have chance to purchase a ticket at Leeds.

No conductor on either train available to sell tickets, get off at Saltaire and there are at least 6 of the yellow jacket 'revenue protection' at the exit...none of which with the ability to sell tickets(!)

Anyway one pulls me over and gives me a lecture about how I should have bought a ticket despite my clear explanation that I had no opportunity to do so then jotted down my details from my driving license in his notepad (which has my old address on but I told him my current address too).

What will happen next? He mentioned I would get a bill to pay for the ticket which is fine but I get a horrible feeling it will end up at my old address!

 

[pemma]

According to National Rail Castleford has a TVM, which presumably is card only. Was the ticket you required available from the TVM?

I notice there's a mention of Saltaire TVM being vandalised.

 

[johntea]

Yes it has a card only TVM - although I would never consider using this due to previous card fraud (Not from the TVM I just don't like the idea of using my card in open spaces with little to no CCTV coverage these days!)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd love to see Northern try and argue that a card-only TVM is an "opportunity to pay". London Midland have told me in writing that they don't consider it to be an opportunity to pay.

If you were stopped this morning, I notice that Real Time Trains shows your train from Castleford arrived in Leeds seven minutes late, for a ten-minute connection.

ETA: You'd better get that driving licence updated as soon as you can. It's a £1000 fine for not doing it. You can do it online and it'll be back in a week or two.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Card-only TVM is not sufficient to prove opportunity to buy. I'd stick to your guns on this one!

 

[PermitToTravel]

You should get a replacement licence with your new address by the way - there's no cost and it'll arrive in a week.

I don't think you'll be in any trouble for not buying a ticket when not given an opportunity to do so

 

[bb21]

I think we do have some confirmation from Northern that a passenger would not be persecuted for not buying at a card-only TVM, but I cannot remember for the love of me where that thread is.

 

[johntea]

Thanks for the advice - The driving license is one to sort, it is only a provisional from my driving lessons several years ago and I hardly get asked for ID so it just got overlooked to notice the old address still on it!

Thinking about it more and more...can they actually prosecute at all? (Thinking more generically than my case) as far as I was aware to do this they would have to first offer me the opportunity to pay in the first place, which they didn't as none of them had a ticket machine (Which is odd as there have been similar revenue inspectors before along the line who have been trained to use a ticket machine!), failing that issue me with an UFN document or similar rather than just scribbling some notes down in a notebook?

 

[wensley]

Not sure they will take a tight connection as a valid reason not to have bought a ticket where a full range of purchasing facilities are available?

 

[johntea]

When I say tight I just looked and had the 07:55 arrived into Leeds on schedule at 08:16 that actually covers the 10 minute 'official' connection time for Leeds station. But as pointed out earlier in the thread, it got in 7 minutes later than that anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure they will take a tight connection as a valid reason not to have bought a ticket where a full range of purchasing facilities are available?

There was no opportunity to buy a ticket at the origin. I hope there's no suggestion that a passenger has to delay their journey at an intermediate station by missing a train they were entitled to catch?

 

[Gareth Marston]

There was no opportunity to buy a ticket at the origin. I hope there's no suggestion that a passenger has to delay their journey at an intermediate station by missing a train they were entitled to catch?

That's probably the line to take providing it was a Do-able connection. Welshpool has a card only TVM and no one uses for fear of card fraud. I would be interested to see the figures for sales from these machines.

 

[yorkie]

That's probably the line to take providing it was a Do-able connection.

I think you mean if the connection wasn't long enough to allow time to obtain a ticket without missing the train?

In this case, it was a 10 minute connection to get between platforms far apart, which would perhaps have been enough time to get in the excess fares queue and see how it developed, but as the train was 7 mins late, it was barely enough time to make the train!

The OP needs to take Northern to the cleaners. I'd contact Barry Doe too.

I'd charge them at least £20 per hour of my time spent dealing with the matter.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd charge them at least £20 per hour of my time spent dealing with the matter.

You might, but if johntea tried to make such a claim, there is no reason to suppose that Northern Rail would give it a moment's thought, and certainly no prospect of johntea recovering those costs without risking a costly legal action with marginal prospects of success.

 

[beeza1]

Don't know if this will help the OP but, in the Penistone Line timetable (operated by Northern), under the heading Tickets it states, "When boarding at unstaffed stations, you must buy your ticket on the train unless you already have a valid ticket or pass." it also goes on to state, "If your journey starts at a station where no staff are in attendance, you can buy your ticket from the conductor on the train." So it would appear, according to Northern there is no obligation to use a TVM if the station is unmanned.

 

[LateThanNever]

You might, but if johntea tried to make such a claim, there is no reason to suppose that Northern Rail would give it a moment's thought, and certainly no prospect of johntea recovering those costs without risking a costly legal action with marginal prospects of success.

Oh dear!

I think you mean if the connection wasn't long enough to allow time to obtain a ticket without missing the train? In this case, it was a 10 minute connection to get between platforms far apart, which would perhaps have been enough time to get in the excess fares queue and see how it developed, but as the train was 7 mins late, it was barely enough time to make the train!

The OP needs to take Northern to the cleaners. I'd contact Barry Doe too.

I'd charge them at least £20 per hour of my time spent dealing with the matter.

Quite. They, as a PLC, are enforcing their ticketing operations in a grossly irresponsible manner for their customers - so Small Claims Court. And the great advantage is no 'costs'! And for a PLC their costs are always larger than an individual's and generally the 'judges' - usually local solicitors - are sympathetic to local and small! You will have to use the same system to collect the money - with a cost - but as a PLC it is difficult to resist without inflating their own costs which become irresponsible to their shareholders!

Anyway £20 a hour should in the end, get you a free ride!

And don't show them your driving licence. They have no right whatsoever to demand proof of identity. Neither do the Police have the right to ask for documentary proof of identity. (Blair's identity cards - or similar - were just what we don't all want!)

 

[yorkie]

Don't know if this will help the OP but, in the Penistone Line timetable (operated by Northern), under the heading Tickets it states, "When boarding at unstaffed stations, you must buy your ticket on the train unless you already have a valid ticket or pass." it also goes on to state, "If your journey starts at a station where no staff are in attendance, you can buy your ticket from the conductor on the train." So it would appear, according to Northern there is no obligation to use a TVM if the station is unmanned.

I believe the OP wished to pay with cash, if so it's moot.

If the OP was wanting to pay by card, it's a highly debatable point, and not one I'd want to get into with a prosecutions department.

 

[beeza1]

I believe the OP wished to pay with cash, if so it's moot.

If the OP was wanting to pay by card, it's a highly debatable point, and not one I'd want to get into with a prosecutions department.

My point is that, according to Northern's own timetable booklet there is no mention of any requirement, legal or otherwise to use any type of TVM, cash or card if you board at an unstaffed station, how they could then attempt to prosecute someone for following the rules they have published beggars belief.

 

[Merseysider]

don't show them your driving licence. They have no right whatsoever to demand proof of identity. Neither do the Police have the right to ask for documentary proof of identity.

This is incorrect. You are obliged to identify yourself to an officer if s/he suspects you of committing a criminal offence. Failure to do so can be grounds for arrest.

Oh, and in addition

Name and address
Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.

If the "authorised person" ie the RPI thinks you're lying about your name and address, showing him some ID might be the difference between him calling the police and just looking at your license.

 

[LateThanNever]

My point is that, according to Northern's own timetable booklet there is no mention of any requirement, legal or otherwise to use any type of TVM, cash or card if you board at an unstaffed station, how they could then attempt to prosecute someone for following the rules they have published beggars belief.

Hear hear!
Trouble is unless you fight it in court, they may just rely on railway byelaws.
But even then there has been no opportunity to buy so say so! And also say you're quite prepared to pay your fare minus your reasonable costs resulting from their ineptitude in collecting their fares.
Copy the MP, Passenger Focus and the Dft and anyone else who you think might be interested!

This is incorrect. You are obliged to identify yourself to an officer if s/he suspects you of committing a criminal offence. Failure to do so can be grounds for arrest.

Sorry it is not incorrect!
You do not have to offer any documentary evidence of identity under UK law.
Thank goodness!

 

[yorkie]

Someone did win a case where he charged a company something like £20 per hour to deal with their correspondence, this was in the news a few months but I can't remember the details. I suspect Tibbs may know as I think he told me about it at one of the London meals. One of the key aspects is to inform them of this charge early on, and if they continue to write to you, it may be considered binding. But that's an aside really and not the main concern.

There's also the matter of whether or not there was a return journey, and if so what happened.

I've sent a private message (PM) to johntea about this and am happy to advse via PM; I don't think it's wise to post any more details of this case on the forum as it's a potential dispute between johntea and Northern, and one that I am determined johntea will win. I have successfully helped johntea in a battle with, if I recall correctly, TPE before and I expect nothing less than success this time round too.

I'd also be happy to have a meeting in person with johntea and others who have been wronged by Northern recently (e.g. starmill, yorksrob and others) in somewhere like Leeds or Garforth, as I feel we need to take these matters further and alert the media, complain to Passenger Focus (and refer the matters to MPs) and we could also report concerns to the DfT who should be made to do some regulating for once.

If anyone else has been wronged by Northern recently please don't hesitate to get in touch. It's time we dealt with the problem and put a stop to their overcharging and harassment of their 'customers'.

 

[MikeWh]

This is incorrect. You are obliged to identify yourself to an officer if s/he suspects you of committing a criminal offence. Failure to do so can be grounds for arrest.

Oh, and in addition
If the "authorised person" ie the RPI thinks you're lying about your name and address, showing him some ID might be the difference between him calling the police and just looking at your license.

No. Your obligation is to give your name and address. You do not have to prove it is correct at the time. If you have proof then it can help, obviously, but no-one has to carry proof with them.

 

[LateThanNever]

Someone did win a case where he charged a company something like £20 per hour to deal with their correspondence, this was in the news a few months but I can't remember the details. I suspect Tibbs may know as I think he told me about it at one of the London meals. One of the key aspects is to inform them of this charge early on, and if they continue to write to you, it may be considered binding. But that's an aside really and not the main concern.

There's also the matter of whether or not there was a return journey, and if so what happened.

I've sent a private message (PM) to johntea about this and am happy to advse via PM; I don't think it's wise to post any more details of this case on the forum as it's a potential dispute between johntea and Northern, and one that I am determined johntea will win. I have successfully helped johntea in a battle with, if I recall correctly, TPE before and I expect nothing less than success this time round too.

I'd also be happy to have a meeting in person with johntea and others who have been wronged by Northern recently (e.g. starmill, yorksrob and others) in somewhere like Leeds or Garforth, as I feel we need to take these matters further and alert the media, complain to Passenger Focus (and refer the matters to MPs) and we could also report concerns to the DfT who should be made to do some regulating for once.

If anyone else has been wronged by Northern recently please don't hesitate to get in touch. It's time we dealt with the problem and put a stop to their overcharging and harassment of their 'customers'.

Hurray!

I've also had an interesting communication with ORR which may (or, regrettably, may not ) come to proof...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
What will happen next? He mentioned I would get a bill to pay for the ticket which is fine but I get a horrible feeling it will end up at my old address!

johntea, there's a lot of discussion between forum members on here, some of which might assist you, and some might not, some offering help and some expressing opinions which don't concern your situation. But please let me make two points to you which I urge you to keep firmly in mind:-

1. You are right, that you should expect a bill to pay for the ticket. Your fare remains unpaid.
It follows that the Company might consider that their costs in collecting this fare from you amounts to an additional administrative burden which, in all equity, should be borne by you, but you may disagree and contest any administrative costs claimed against you. Please take advice before contesting costs, mainly to avoid the risk of exposing yourself to further liabilities.

2. You are at liberty to charge Northern Rail for your time. Please don't entertain any expectation that those charges will ever be paid. The support of forum members can be a helpful assurance in times of need, but help which leads to further uncertainty and poor prospects of success is no help.

Someone did win a case where he charged a company something like £20 per hour to deal with their correspondence, this was in the news a few months but I can't remember the details. I suspect Tibbs may know as I think he told me about it at one of the London meals. . . . .

I have no reason to doubt you. But before we encourage johntea with such a claim, perhaps we should establish two neccessary prerequisite conditions for such a claim: identify the authority, and confirm that they apply in his/her situation?
If they do.

I remain to be persuaded.
I see only an unpaid fare which still remains unpaid, and an antagonistic approach towards the Company which provided the rail journey and who have not yet repeated their request for the fare , a fare which remains unpaid.

It seems quite simple to me.

 

[yorkie]

I see only an unpaid fare which still remains unpaid, and an antagonistic approach towards the Company which provided the rail journey and who have not yet repeated their request for the fare , a fare which remains unpaid.

It seems quite simple to me.

If there was no return journey it's surely as simple as sending them a cheque for the required amount and an expectation there will be no further correspondence (other than perhaps an apology for the way he was treated, but certainly no prosecution threats).

If there was a return journey made, which was paid for by the purchase of a single ticket, then I'd expect the debt to be considered to be only the difference in price between the fare paid and the cost of the appropriate return fare. This may not make much difference but is, I feel, an important principle. In some cases it could be almost double the price to be charged for two singles.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Some of this makes an interesting debate, but just one question to clarify for me the actual scenario being discussed please.

Given that the service from Leeds would arrive at platform 2, where exactly were the RP staff positioned who spoke to you?

Were you leaving from the Shipley College exit or from the Albert Terrace exit please?

 

[jkdd77]

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that if a passenger attempts to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity available to him or her, and the TOC, or its authorised representatives, refuses to accept payment, then the passenger clearly remains liable for the fare.

However, he or she surely cannot be liable for any administration costs caused, directly or indirectly, by Northern's own unreasonable refusal to accept payment, having apparently previously failed to provide an acceptable payment mechanism, and, assuming this is indeed the case, I believe that any civil claim brought by Northern in relation to these administration costs would fail, since they have brought these costs upon themselves.

 

[Flamingo]

Yorkie, from memory somebody took a company to small-claims for the cost of time taken dealing with spam phone calls and getting his name off their list. He did tell them his charges early on, and the bulk of his time was spent on- hold on their phone lines. The company did not turn up so he won a judgement by default. Sorry, I can't find a link, it sounds like one the Daily Mail (those champions of the little man!) would have run with.

 

[Merseysider]

Yorkie, from memory somebody took a company to small-claims for the cost of time taken dealing with spam phone calls and getting his name off their list. He did tell them his charges early on, and the bulk of his time was spent on- hold on their phone lines. The company did not turn up so he won a judgement by default. Sorry, I can't find a link, it sounds like one the Daily Mail (those champions of the little man!) would have run with.

Here's one about a man winning £750 in costs after charging a shoddy firm for his time. It is from the Daily Mail, so take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There probably won't be much press coverage to be found of the hundreds of amateur claimants who (perhaps inspired by those newspaper stories) attempt their own claim - and who fail. Some are so fuelled by a sense of indignation or righteousness that they don't give up, and launch an Appeal - and fail.

Every week another one tries their luck - and fails.
No press in court.

Let's make sure our advice to johntea is proportionate.