Revenue protection took my details - Unstaffed station

[Flamingo]

I was never aware of that! It's useful to know ??????

 

[Clip]

Many years ago I read somewhere that there is no legal requirement to give change and it's more or less the responsibility of the person paying to provide the amoutn owed or required.

Does anyone know if this has changed?

Of course, in almost all situations it would be desirable and relatively easy to give change, but I believe this piece of legality was useful for dealing with the sort of situations that Flamingo has described, where the passenger would deliberately offer a very large note in the hope that it would lead to him or her not paying at all.

In that example, it would have been a good idea to point out that there was no legal requirement to give any change, and I've no doubt that faced with the prospect of paying £50 instead of £1.60 the outraged traveller would have managed to find the right money!

Not that I ever responded in that way to a similar situation when I worked in Reading ticket office, naturally

Ive heard something like that before but alas my google skills are lacking today through closed tired eyes.

 

[Greenback]

I did a very quick search and I couldn't find anything that suggests there's been a change. But it was a very quick search!

Anyway, we seem to have drifted a long way off topic, so perhaps the discussion is best left for now in any case.

 

[Tibbs]

The fear of being lumped with a load of change if why I prefer to pay by card, although its nothing a good coin holder can't solve

Yours is such a beautful one as well - very plastic & yellow (iirc...)

 

[Busaholic]

I did a very quick search and I couldn't find anything that suggests there's been a change. But it was a very quick search!

Anyway, we seem to have drifted a long way off topic, so perhaps the discussion is best left for now in any case.

Try Royal Mint website for a definition of legal tender.

There is no requirement though for anyone to give change in a cash transaction. That is the legal position.

A current shopkeeper.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is no requirement though for anyone to give change in a cash transaction. That is the legal position.

My (limited) understanding is that this is related to the initial discussion being an "invitation to treat".

If you say the price is £1.77 and they give you a £20 note, you can tell them this means they're offering you £20. You'll leave it up to them whether they want to rethink their generous offer.

You can't take the £20 note out of their hands for a £1.77 item and then say "I'm not giving you any change".

This is obviously much easier to do at a ticket office than on a train.

 

[Greenback]

My (limited) understanding is that this is related to the initial discussion being an "invitation to treat".

If you say the price is £1.77 and they give you a £20 note, you can tell them this means they're offering you £20. You'll leave it up to them whether they want to rethink their generous offer.

You can't take the £20 note out of their hands for a £1.77 item and then say "I'm not giving you any change".

This is obviously much easier to do at a ticket office than on a train.

I agree with this. I'd say it was useful in putting a passenger who is already on a train in a position to make a decision as to whether they want to

a) pay £50 for their ticket
b) produce an alternative means of payment (including the correct money or a lower denomination note or
c) take the risk of not buying a ticket at all and seeing what happens

The key factor is to remove any idea the traveller has that it is more the responsibility of the vendor to deal with matters than it is the purchaser, and it may or not be a successful defence to a charge of not having a valid ticket later on (I wouldn't want to comment on that either way were I to doing Flamingo's job).

 

[fairysdad]

Interestingly, the National Rail website specifies exact details and limits with respect to coins and notes which are accepted at stations and retail outlets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Interesting that Jersey/Guerney/Man coins aren't accepted, yet their notes are.

 

[najaB]

Interesting that Jersey/Guerney/Man coins aren't accepted, yet their notes are.

In practice the coins will be accepted as they aren't significantly different to UK ones. It would be a sharp-eyed RPI that noticed - I've received Guernsey pound coins in the past as change and didn't notice until much later.

 

[Class377]

Couldn't it be argued that paying after the journey has commenced is actually settling a debt? And thus legal tender is required?

 

[Busaholic]

My (limited) understanding is that this is related to the initial discussion being an "invitation to treat".

If you say the price is £1.77 and they give you a £20 note, you can tell them this means they're offering you £20. You'll leave it up to them whether they want to rethink their generous offer.

You can't take the £20 note out of their hands for a £1.77 item and then say "I'm not giving you any change".

This is obviously much easier to do at a ticket office than on a train.

In practice, it means the provider of goods and services is under no obligation to keep a 'float' or change. Examples I can think of off the top of my head:- a bus company e.g. Preston Buses of yore may have a farebox system combined with graduated fares, no change given by the driver and no means of getting any overpayment back; a machine in a car park, again with different tariffs, may not dispense change e.g. a favourite one of mine on Plymouth Barbican, 20 minutes for 55p, one in Truro 95p for an hour.You are being penalised for not having the correct change, or if a coin won't register.

 

[maniacmartin]

In practice the coins will be accepted as they aren't significantly different to UK ones. It would be a sharp-eyed RPI that noticed - I've received Guernsey pound coins in the past as change and didn't notice until much later.

An eagle-eyed bus driver once rejected a Manx 50p piece from me! It had a slightly different design on the back and I had just presumed it was yet another UK 50p design as they seem to bring out new ones so regularly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Couldn't it be argued that paying after the journey has commenced is actually settling a debt? And thus legal tender is required?

No, because as it states in the explanation below legal tender is not relevant to normal transactions, but only specifically when paying a debt into court.

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation.

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

 

[Haywain]

Couldn't it be argued that paying after the journey has commenced is actually settling a debt? And thus legal tender is required?

No. There is a difference between an obligation to pay and a debt, and what you refer to is an obligation to pay. Legal tender is explained on the Royal Mint website:

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded.

 

[yorkie]

Try Royal Mint website for a definition of legal tender.

There is no requirement though for anyone to give change in a cash transaction. That is the legal position.

A current shopkeeper.

But none of that has relevance for payments for a rail journey

Couldn't it be argued that paying after the journey has commenced is actually settling a debt? And thus legal tender is required?

No.

 

[cjmillsnun]

No reply from SWT yet. Will chase them tomorrow.

 

[arabianights]

I had somebody on an early train a while ago offered me a £50 note for £1.60, with the line "I'm offering to pay, if you can't change it that's not my problem".

Unfortunately for him I had two £50 floats with me, so I just opened one, took the £1.60 out of it and gave him the remaining £48.40 in a variety of change. To his "What do you expect me to do with that?" I advised him to check it was correct!

Magnificent

 

[johntea]

Small update to the case

After clearing off the 'debt' of £4.20 (they still owe me £0.40!) I sent a letter to Northern outlining my issues with the case, despite asking twice they basically responded with 'should have used the facilities at Leeds!' (I clearly pointed out the fact in my letter that this is all well and good until your 08:16 service arrives at 08:22 with the connection at 08:26!).

After deciding I wasn't going to get much further with Northern I have passed on all the details to Passenger Focus so I'll let you know what they have to say as I'm fairly confident it'll be a different hymn sheet to Northern

The reason I actually was reminded to update this thread was the latest letter from Northern came electronically via email then they've sent out the same letter via post - on the envelope it has a stamp 'DO NOT SURCHARGE CORRECT POSTAGE RAISED BY REVENUE PROTECTION TREAT AS 2ND CLASS'. Not quite sure what this means but if I had spent money sending a recorded letter to Northern I would be pretty miffed by their choice to send their response back out via 2nd class mail!

 

[island]

I don't think it's necessary to send normal correspondence by recorded delivery, irrespective of how the correspondee has sent his.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think it's necessary to send normal correspondence by recorded delivery, irrespective of how the correspondee has sent his.

It's not, unless the letter contains something valuable. A certificate of postage is usually enough in the event of a dispute. If you posted it you are entitled to treat the letter as delivered.

 

[yorkie]

johntea - Thanks for the update, don't give up!

It's also worth contacting Barry Doe, as Northern don't appear to be in his good books at the moment, so he might be interested.

If PF don't resolve it, go to your MP.

This is an important point of principle. The way you were originally spoken to, and subsequently written to, is not acceptable and trying to charge the cost of 2 x Singles is wrong. Although only 40p in your case, for others making a longer journey 2 x singles it could be a significant sum extra. Also if you had underpaid by 40p, or even 10p, they'd be prosecuting you, so I don't see why they think it's acceptable to overcharge.

 

[johntea]

No official response back from Passenger Focus / Northern Rail yet (since passing on the case to PF), however I noticed today a payment for £0.40 from IRCAS in my bank account

 

[johntea]

Response back from Passenger Focus

I’m pleased to tell you that, following my appeal on your behalf, Northern Rail have agreed to refund the 40 pence requested, as a refund of the difference in cost between the overall cost of your Failure To Pay and the return ticket, and the ticket that you intended to buy. This will be sent to you directly and should reach you within the next 20 working days.

Unfortunately, the Failure To Pay scheme will not allow Revenue Protection Officers to issue a “return”, thereby allowing the passenger to pay for the equivalent return fare. Northern have also confirmed that they will not be introducing this into the scheme. As the scheme has been agreed with the Department for Transport, we would be unable to instruct them to integrate a “return” Failure To Pay. The Failure To Pay scheme is designed to educate passengers who board services without making any effort to purchase a ticket. Northern realise that some passengers do so out of habit and have therefore adopted this scheme, which basically invoices the passenger for the journey taken whilst retaining their information should repeated instances occur, rather than issuing Penalty Fare Notices which would cost the passenger significantly more.

Nevertheless, it is clear that a small proportion of passengers do end up receiving Failure To Pay Notices, through no fault of their own. Like yourself, some passengers will then end up paying more for their overall journey, than would’ve been paid had they had the opportunity to pay from the outset. We would expect Northern to consider a refund of the difference in cost, if this was the case, and if this was raised with them as a complaint. I am therefore pleased that Northern Rail agreed to refund this amount.

You have mentioned in your emails that you are concerned that, after the Revenue Protection Officer took your details down, this information would’ve been kept on his person. You are also keen to find out what was written in the book and what other information Northern Rail hold on you. Northern Rail have confirmed that the notebooks are kept by the Officers on their person for the duration of the shift. After the shift has finished, the notebooks are kept securely until the next shift. Once the book is full, it is again kept in a secure location until the information is no longer required. Northern are not, as far as we are aware, breaking any regulations by collecting Failure To Pay or Fixed Penalty data in this manner. However, we do agree that this could be captured in a much more secure way, such as password protected tablets. We have raised our comments with the train company and will continue to take this up on a broader level, to better this process.

In terms of obtaining a copy of the information held on you – unfortunately, we do not have access to their records, nor can we make a request for the information on a passenger’s behalf. In order to obtain a copy of this information, you will need to contact Northern Rail Debt Recovery and Prosecutions Unit and ask for a Data Subject Access Request. Further information on how to go about requesting this data can be found at https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Passenger Focus there about as helpful and perceptive as ever. They'd be of more use to rail passengers if used as ballast.

 

[Merseysider]

...rather than issuing Penalty Fare Notices which would cost the passenger significantly more.

First I've heard of any Northern Penalty Fare schemes?

And if they're referring to the £80 oocs Northern like to call Fixed Penalty Notices (like the FPNs you get on the street by police for smoking a blunt) then that is worrying.

Glad to see they've agreed to refund you the difference. But it's nothing short of incompetence to not issue return tickets too.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Somewhat off-topic, but as I understand it smoking cannabis in the street can be punished by a Fixed Penalty Notice or a Penalty Notice for Disorder, depending on the police force in question.

 

[Merseysider]

Somewhat off-topic, but as I understand it smoking cannabis in the street can be punished by a Fixed Penalty Notice or a Penalty Notice for Disorder, depending on the police force in question.

If only there was simplification across all police tocs!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Passenger Focus there about as helpful and perceptive as ever. They'd be of more use to rail passengers if used as ballast.

Pretty much spot on, unfortunately.

Northern Rail do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme, their "penalty fare" scheme is the entirely made-up and unchallengeable "Failure to Pay" scheme, where they'll add a spurious £80 on to fares.

The fact that Passenger Focus don't grasp this is troubling, although not entirely unsurprising. You can't expect a lobby group which is run by and paid for by ATOC to be unbiased, can you.

 

[Haywain]

First I've heard of any Northern Penalty Fare schemes?

And if they're referring to the £80 oocs Northern like to call Fixed Penalty Notices (like the FPNs you get on the street by police for smoking a blunt) then that is worrying.

Glad to see they've agreed to refund you the difference. But it's nothing short of incompetence to not issue return tickets too.

I think what PF are saying is that if Northern operated a Penalty Fare scheme it would cost passengers more in these circumstances. I certainly don't read it as suggesting the a PF scheme is operated.

You can't expect a lobby group which is run by and paid for by ATOC to be unbiased, can you.

I'm sure ATOC would be more than happy to have someone else pay for Passenger Focus. Who would you suggest (bearing in mind that members of ATOC are put in place by the government)?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

First I've heard of any Northern Penalty Fare schemes?....

The sentence is not an indication that Northern issue Penalty Fares, it notes that the Failure to Pay notices are cheaper than Penalty Fares.