Revenue targets for staff

[Mr Micawber]

I have a question: Can management legally set targets for revenue protection staff to achieve in the amount of Penalty Fares, MG11s and Bye Law reports they issue?

 

[scrapy]

I don't think there is any law to stop this. Whether or not it's a sensible idea is another argument. Management will often look at averages and if someone is consistently way under or way over then questions may be asked, however it will vary on a number of factors.

I don't have any figures to back this up but it is rumoured that 3rd party revenue contractors (not the individual staff) get payments depending on the number of successful penalty fares issued or mg11s completed.

Is this a general question or related to an experience you've encountered?

 

[Mr Micawber]

Thanks for replying.It's a general question really.As you say there doesn't seem to be anything written down about it,I've looked everywhere.
Interesting that the third party contractors are rumoured to be incentivised,but not the staff.

 

[ComUtoR]

The incentive is the commission earned on selling tickets etc.

 

[robbeech]

Third party contractors cost money so have to be seen to be worthwhile. Staff (whilst obviously also cost money) are there regardless and generally have a variety of tasks to do other than revenue duties.

 

[king_walnut]

Southern used to have a points target for their RPO's. A penalty fare was 20 points and an MG11 was 50 points, and if you averaged 250 per day then that was considered good performance.

Then I think the union got involved and they dropped the targets. Penalty fares / MG11's are supposed to be at the revenue officer's sole discretion, and it's not ideal for anyone if they haven't been getting their numbers so decide to be ruthless at the elderly who've left their senior card at home, or Chinese students who don't really understand what's going on.

 

[Monty]

Southern used to have a points target for their RPO's. A penalty fare was 20 points and an MG11 was 50 points, and if you averaged 250 per day then that was considered good performance.

Then I think the union got involved and they dropped the targets. Penalty fares / MG11's are supposed to be at the revenue officer's sole discretion, and it's not ideal for anyone if they haven't been getting their numbers so decide to be ruthless at the elderly who've left their senior card at home, or Chinese students who don't really understand what's going on.

That's mental, that's over Fiveteen PFNs a day! When I used to be an RPA for SWT I'd only ever reach those kind of numbers during special events or exercises. Alternatively Five MG 11s is a bit much too, I'd consider 10 a month to be a half decent figure for yours truly....

 

[Mojo]

That's mental, that's over Fiveteen PFNs a day! When I used to be an RPA for SWT I'd only ever reach those kind of numbers during special events or exercises. Alternatively Five MG 11s is a bit much too, I'd consider 10 a month to be a half decent figure for yours truly....

Was about to say, that seems exceptionally high!

 

[king_walnut]

That's mental, that's over Fiveteen PFNs a day! When I used to be an RPA for SWT I'd only ever reach those kind of numbers during special events or exercises. Alternatively Five MG 11s is a bit much too, I'd consider 10 a month to be a half decent figure for yours truly....

It wasn't that difficult to achieve to be honest. Before Gatwick Airport got the Oyster extension, I would easily do 50 penalty fares if I spent the whole shift there. The Friday/Saturday night blocks we used to do with BTP at Brighton would always yield hundreds shared out across the whole team (I think our best evening was 430 penalty fares and 80ish MG11's in total for the 12 of us) Standing at Falmer in the mornings was ridiculous too, there'd easily be 20-30 people coming off every train without a ticket.

Then in 2015, all 100 Southern RPO's were made redundant, go figure that one out

 

[matt_world2004]

It wasn't that difficult to achieve to be honest. Before Gatwick Airport got the Oyster extension, I would easily do 50 penalty fares if I spent the whole shift there. The Friday/Saturday night blocks we used to do with BTP at Brighton would always yield hundreds shared out across the whole team (I think our best evening was 430 penalty fares and 80ish MG11's in total for the 12 of us) Standing at Falmer in the mornings was ridiculous too, there'd easily be 20-30 people coming off every train without a ticket.

Then in 2015, all 100 Southern RPO's were made redundant, go figure that one out

That certainly seems to me that there was something wrong with the ticketing to gatwick if you were issuing that many

 

[ComUtoR]

The Friday/Saturday night blocks we used to do with BTP at Brighton would always yield hundreds shared out across the whole team

(...)

Then in 2015, all 100 Southern RPO's were made redundant, go figure that one out

Our REOs (Railway Enforcement Officers) were initially there for safety and security only. They were then told that they had to 'prove their value' so they started issuing tickets.

What they would do (initially) was set up a block at a well known location and hit it hard for a day. Once they hit their targets they would go back to safety and security.

 

[js1000]

I don't think there is any law to stop this. Whether or not it's a sensible idea is another argument.

I don't have any figures to back this up but it is rumoured that 3rd party revenue contractors (not the individual staff) get payments depending on the number of successful penalty fares issued or mg11s completed.

Always surprises me how train operating companies would trust a third party contractor give financial bonuses to its employees. How can an RPI possibly use any form of discretion if it means a financial bonus for issuing a penalty fares/fines where a reasonable excuse may exist?

Unfortunately, we see instances whereby disabled passengers are issued with Penalty Fares and it's beggars belief. My only rationale is that there must be a financial reward at the end of it to blur someone's judgement so drastically. Discretion and financial incentive are an oxymoron. By all means keep a record of performance but financial incentives for revenue targets are alien to me in the railway industry.

 

[scrapy]

Always surprises me how train operating companies would trust a third party contractor give financial bonuses to its employees. How can an RPI possibly use any form of discretion if it means a financial bonus for issuing a penalty fares/fines where a reasonable excuse may exist?

Unfortunately, we see instances whereby disabled passengers are issued with Penalty Fares and it's beggars belief. My only rationale is that there must be a financial reward at the end of it to blur someone's judgement so drastically. Discretion and financial incentive are an oxymoron. By all means keep a record of performance but financial incentives for revenue targets are alien to me in the railway industry.

The firm's alledgedly get the bonuses not the individual staff, as subcontractors they are often on minimum wage (Carlisles who work for Northern definitely are) with no bonuses.

 

[tsr]

Unfortunately, we see instances whereby disabled passengers are issued with Penalty Fares and it's beggars belief.

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. From extensive experience, some elderly and disabled people are by no means immune to evading fares, and indeed can make things quite “political” to suit their own goals. Proportionally, they’re just as bad as everyone else.

In the recent past, the longest amount of time I’ve seen evidence of someone fraudulently using an expired railcard is about 3 years, and that was a “sweet old dear” with a Senior card. On the very same route, at least one Disabled railcard holder is renowned for always being surprised at being asked to pay up for a one- or two-stop local journey...

 

[scrapy]

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. From extensive experience, some elderly and disabled people are by no means immune to evading fares, and indeed can make things quite “political” to suit their own goals. Proportionally, they’re just as bad as everyone else.

In the recent past, the longest amount of time I’ve seen evidence of someone fraudulently using an expired railcard is about 3 years, and that was a “sweet old dear” with a Senior card. On the very same route, at least one Disabled railcard holder is renowned for always being surprised at being asked to pay up for a one- or two-stop local journey...

Providing someones disability doesn't prevent or hinder them from purchasing a ticket then I see no reason why they shouldn't be issues a penalty fare. For example somebody with a hearing impairment can often use a ticket machine as easily as somebody without that disability. Whereas somebody with a visual impairment often cannot. However the person with the hearing impairment may also have learning difficulties which may not be obvious to the RPI but may prevent them using a machine. It may be that a person cannot stand in a queue, again this may not be obvious to an rpi whether or not they are on commission. Do we just not issue any penalty fares in case someone has a disability?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I have a Disabled Railcard on account of being Deaf. I find using TVMs much easier than interacting with a clerk behind thick glass, or in a noisy room. But, as we all know, not all tickets can be issued at a TVM! I do try to book online, but again not everything available, but generally more tickets than a TVM. However, I find that if I do need to use a counter, and explain to the staff that I'm Deaf, they are always very helpful and understanding. Equally, I find that with on-train staff too. I feel a bit bad explaining I'm Deaf, as I feel I am making an excuse, which is of course my own fault for feeling like that, and I am not doing anything wrong. I rarely travel in the South East, but I was on LO once using an Oyster with Railcard attached. As I use it so rarely I had forgotten the Railcard was attached to it to be honest, I was travelling from Watford Junction, having arrived on London Midland (as then was) and touched in, then an RPI boarded, again not something I had experienced on LO before. I didn't hear what he was asking, but I assumed a ticket check and saw everyone else handing over Oysters and he held them on a machine. I did the same, and then he said something to me. I didn't know what he said, so I asked him to repeat, and I still couldn't make it out, so I said "I'm sorry I am Deaf, I can't hear what you are saying" he instantly relaxed (he probably thought I had been trying it on till that point, and why would he not?) wrote down "Railcard?" and the penny then dropped with me that the Oyster had a Railcard on it, and so I showed it! But I was impressed that they took the disability seriously, but without allowing it as an excuse. Lets be honest, anyone can pretend to be Deaf, so a Railcard check is always necessary.

 

[Antman]

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. From extensive experience, some elderly and disabled people are by no means immune to evading fares, and indeed can make things quite “political” to suit their own goals. Proportionally, they’re just as bad as everyone else.

In the recent past, the longest amount of time I’ve seen evidence of someone fraudulently using an expired railcard is about 3 years, and that was a “sweet old dear” with a Senior card. On the very same route, at least one Disabled railcard holder is renowned for always being surprised at being asked to pay up for a one- or two-stop local journey...

I agree, there are plenty of crafty old sods about who are as sharp as a pin but suddenly become all confused when it suits them.

 

[Tom B]

I agree, there are plenty of crafty old sods about who are as sharp as a pin but suddenly become all confused when it suits them.

... and then next thing you know, they're featured on "Angry People in Local Newspapers" as mean old railway guard won't let Doris, 76, travel without a ticket. Doris has fifteen grandchildren and was on her way back from her weekly session looking after disabled bunny rabbits. Or something like that...

 

[Mr Micawber]

Southern used to have a points target for their RPO's. A penalty fare was 20 points and an MG11 was 50 points, and if you averaged 250 per day then that was considered good performance.

Then I think the union got involved and they dropped the targets. Penalty fares / MG11's are supposed to be at the revenue officer's sole discretion, and it's not ideal for anyone if they haven't been getting their numbers so decide to be ruthless at the elderly who've left their senior card at home, or Chinese students who don't really understand what's going on.

This is getting to what I'm trying to find out.You say the unions got involved so they dropped the targets.So is it that discretion maybe compromised if targets are set?Is it anywhere stated in any legislation or codes of conduct that targets can or cannot be set?

 

[muz379]

Conductor here , we get told what our revenue figures are every 6 months when we have a performance review , we can also be asked to account for a noticeable drop or being significantly under the average for the depot .

Different managers at different depots place different levels of emphasis on revenue figures . Luckily mine does not seem to be for getting too caught up on this area of "performance" although I am mostly within 10% of the depot average anyway .

 

[Thedispatcher]

When I was a guard for a Midlands based TOC, we didn’t have targets as such but were incentivised on sales by way of commission. Didn’t issue PFs but did issue UPFNs, however they weren’t tracked and just gave us another option to help someone out. Revenue figures came out monthly and managers would tell you where you were, if you wanted to know.