Revised Northern Hub plans proposed by DfT today

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aformeruser

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North TPE
* Half-hourly fast Liverpool – (Chat Moss) – Victoria – Leeds – York – Newcastle electric service.
* Half hourly fast Manchester Airport – Piccadilly (Ordsall Chord) – Victoria – Leeds –York electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby electric service.
* Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly – Leeds – Selby – Hull diesel service

Other TPE
* Hourly fast Piccadilly - Wigan – Preston – Carlisle – Scotland electric service.
* Hourly Piccadilly – Blackpool North electric service.

Northern Local
* Buxton – Piccadilly service linked across Manchester with Liverpool – Warrington – Manchester service (assumes Castlefield capacity enhancement).
* Liverpool – Earlestown – Piccadilly local service electrified, extended to Manchester Airport and frequency increase to half-hourly.
* Local service from Piccadilly to Huddersfield (replaces service from Victoria).
* Local services from Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield, Marple (both routes), Hope Valley, Stoke, Crewe, Chester via Altrincham, Bolton and Preston revised to match current patterns of demand.
* Services from Manchester Airport revised to match current patterns of demand.
* Services from Liverpool, Southport, Wigan, Blackburn and Clitheroe to Victoria extended to
Stalybridge or Rochdale and revised to match current patterns of demand.
* Blackburn/Accrington via Todmorden to Victoria diesel services introduced.
* Wigan – Kirby becomes self-contained diesel service.

Manchester Regional/Intercity
* Liverpool via Warrington semi-fast services continue to Sheffield.
* North Wales service transfers to Victoria/Bradford (and beyond)
* South Wales service unchanged.
* Cross Country services unchanged.

Yorkshire Local/Regional
* Half-hourly Huddersfield – Dewsbury – Leeds electric service with increase in train capacity.
* Leeds – Bradford Interchange – Huddersfield – Wakefield Westgate split at
Huddersfield with revised formations.
* Leeds – Mirfield – Calder Valley – Rochdale – Manchester Victoria with revised train formations.
*Leeds – Bradford Forster Square, Leeds - Ilkley and Leeds – Skipton trains (Airdale line) lengthened with additional electric carriages.
* Leeds – Barnsley – Sheffield (Hallam Line) and Leeds – Castleford – Sheffield
strengthened by revised train formations.
* Leeds – Knottingly (Pontefract Line) strengthened by revised train formations and additional peak services.
* Leeds – Wakefield Westgate – Sheffield with revised train formations.
* Leeds – Harrogate strengthened by revised train formations and additional Leeds – Horsforth shuttles.
* Half-hourly Micklefield - Leeds – Bradford – Rochdale – Manchester Victoria diesel services (fast Bradford – Manchester, assumed in Manchester to extend to Warrington/Chester).
* Blackpool – Blackburn – Burnley – Bradford – Leeds - York – Scarborough diesel service, stopping Garforth only between Leeds and York.

From: http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/illustrative-options.pdf
 
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WatcherZero

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Its just a headline list, not really detail.

The illustrative peak train services are not what will happen; that will be guided both by the rail industry’s response to the HLOS in the Strategic Business Plan for CP5 where the industry will set out how it proposes to meet the HLOS, and by the outcome of future train operator franchise competitions. But the illustrative train services are needed for the Department to confirm that a value for money solution can be provided to meet peak demand. It is likely the rail industry will produce a more detailed and efficient solution, and in this context the illustrative option can be viewed as the simple answer that should be bettered.
 

aformeruser

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Yes it's up to the next franchise operator to propose exact service patterns but with the proposed electrification schemes it would be surprising if some of the above do not go ahead exactly as proposed.
 

Viscount702

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Does this mean that the Proposed Liverpool-Victoria/Stalybridge electric service (Chat Moss) may not now run and will instead go to the Airport.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes it's up to the next franchise operator to propose exact service patterns but with the proposed electrification schemes it would be surprising if some of the above do not go ahead exactly as proposed.
I'd say it's more down to Network Rail to confirm that it can achieve the capacity first (the HLOS is about NR spend rather than TOC plans).
It's a worked example rather then a specification.
I shouldn't think the TOCs will get a look in until NR says it will work.
Still, good to know some real planning is going on.
 

ChiefPlanner

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TOC's have input a lot into the HLOS today , - now we have a clear steer (and in fact more than we actually expected !) - there will be a lot of "open" meetings to validate these assumptions and operational capabilty.

It is not just NR's call you know !!
 

aformeruser

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TOC's have input a lot into the HLOS today , - now we have a clear steer (and in fact more than we actually expected !) - there will be a lot of "open" meetings to validate these assumptions and operational capabilty.

It is not just NR's call you know !!
Indeed, their has been consultation on North TPE changes for the last couple of years and you don't just pluck an idea like Llandudno to Leeds out of the air.
 

John55

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Does this mean that the Proposed Liverpool-Victoria/Stalybridge electric service (Chat Moss) may not now run and will instead go to the Airport.
Go to the DfT website and look at the detail. http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012

The answer is no it will continue to run unless the government's requirements can be met another way. To understand what the DfT has done you need to read some of the material especially the Railways Act 2005 statement.
 

swt_passenger

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North TPE
* Half-hourly fast Liverpool – (Chat Moss) – Victoria – Leeds – York – Newcastle electric service.
This is quite interesting, because if we go back a few months to the TP North announcement, remember there was some confusion about the plans for Newcastle, and we (not just you and me but a number of others) discussed what they actually meant by the 'additional' Newcastle service.

Then I'm sure when the draft timetable appeared it showed Newcastle still only had one train but it would now come from Liverpool rather than Manchester.

Now suddenly we have two trains to Newcastle, but none to Middlesbrough. How will that scan on Teeside?
 

aformeruser

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Now suddenly we have two trains to Newcastle, but none to Middlesbrough. How will that scan on Teeside?
What's even more interesting is Middlesbrough isn't even mentioned.

There could be a XC service diverted to Middlesbrough or a local service running between Middlesbrough and York/Leeds but neither possibilities are brought up.
 

exile

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Not great news for Warrington - we lose direct services to Leeds, York, and points beyond Sheffield such as Nottingham. I also suspect the direct Liverpool-Bank Quay service will go. However we may gain a North Wales-Bank Quay-Manchester Victoria-Bradford service instead if I read this correctly. Not much use to me as my most common journeys are to Leeds and Newcastle.
 

HSTEd

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Not great news for Warrington - we lose direct services to Leeds, York, and points beyond Sheffield such as Nottingham. I also suspect the direct Liverpool-Bank Quay service will go. However we may gain a North Wales-Bank Quay-Manchester Victoria-Bradford service instead if I read this correctly. Not much use to me as my most common journeys are to Leeds and Newcastle.
I think the train to Sheffield will continue on to Norwich as before, because if they propose cutting it back there will be hell to pay with everyone east of the pennines, just as there was last time they tried it.
 

swt_passenger

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What's even more interesting is Middlesbrough isn't even mentioned.

There could be a XC service diverted to Middlesbrough or a local service running between Middlesbrough and York/Leeds but neither possibilities are brought up.
Must look back at that post about additional platforms at Northallerton...

...for a shuttle service? :lol:
 

Failed Unit

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The plan mooted at one point was to have cross pennie train to Nottingham and Norwich that didn't call at Sheffield and went over the Dore south cord. An additional train would then do Sheffield - Manchester (maybe beyond) to keep the 2tph.

It would be flighted so you would have from Manchester
0003 Sheffield (Stockport, Sheffield)
0006 Norwich (Stockport, Chesterfield etc)
0033 Cleethorpres (Stockport, sheffield)

The times are to illastrate a point before someone says that you can't have trains 3 minutes apart on the line!
 

IanXC

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Now suddenly we have two trains to Newcastle, but none to Middlesbrough. How will that scan on Teeside?
Interesting to see how this fits with the East Coast consultation which suggests removing York-Middlesbrough (plus Cleethorpes and Scarborough) from TPE and creating a multipurpose franchise.

It seems the Blackpool North-York will be extended to Scarborough, so perhaps the EC franchise could operate a hourly York shuttle to there and Middlesborough. Perhaps alongside the XCs.

How does capacity look on the ECML to Newcastle with the proposed service pattern? Does that tell us anything about Middlesborough's service?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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What's even more interesting is Middlesbrough isn't even mentioned.
It is not all that many weeks ago when my query as to a projected-missing (currently existing) TPE Manchester Airport to Newcastle existing service to serve Newcastle-area package-holiday airline passengers on a forum was explained away by the new operational needs of a Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service to provide such a service to meet such airline passenger needs from the North-East. Exactly what is the position on this matter now with regards to the currently existing TPE services that run both to Middlesbrough and to Newcastle from Manchester Airport?
 

Chapeltom

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The plan mooted at one point was to have cross pennie train to Nottingham and Norwich that didn't call at Sheffield and went over the Dore south cord. An additional train would then do Sheffield - Manchester (maybe beyond) to keep the 2tph.

It would be flighted so you would have from Manchester
0003 Sheffield (Stockport, Sheffield)
0006 Norwich (Stockport, Chesterfield etc)
0033 Cleethorpres (Stockport, sheffield)

The times are to illastrate a point before someone says that you can't have trains 3 minutes apart on the line!
Why would you omit Sheffield from a cross Pennine service and go Stockport - Chesterfield?? Wouldn't that inconvenience a lot of people?
 
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tbtc

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Why would you omit Sheffield from a cross Pennine service and go Stockport - Chesterfield?? Wouldn't that inconvenience a lot of people?
I think the idea is to free up capacity on the Manchester - Sheffield and Sheffield - Nottingham services by diverting all the Manchester - Nottingham passengers onto a separate service.

For example, if you diverted the Norwich - Liverpool service away from Sheffield but replaced it by:

  • Extending the Hull - Sheffield service to Manchester
  • Extending the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "short" semi fast service to Nottingham (making that a half hourly service throughout)

...then Sheffield retains the same level of service to Manchester and Nottingham but the longer distance passengers (Nottingham to Manchester) have a faster journey than the current fifteen/twenty minute double back from Dore to Sheffield.

(just suggestions - not based on any RUS information etc)
 

John55

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Before even more is read into todays pronouncements please note the following from the "Railways Act 2005 Statement" which is the Government's fundemental requirement from the rail industry;

"12. The Government’s role in producing the HLOS and SoFA is fundamentally a strategic one. Government is not specifying the detail of how these strategic outputs should be met. Although alongside this HLOS the Government is publishing an ‘Illustrative Option’ of how the outputs could be met, derived from the September 2011 Initial Industry Plan and other industry sources, the Government’s purpose in doing so is to assure itself and others that there are likely to be value for money ways of securing the outcomes specified within the funding limits set out in the SoFA.


13.The Illustrative Option is therefore not a specification. We look to ORR and the industry to improve upon these options and find more efficient and effective ways of achieving the same outcomes at better value for money and lower cost as they take forward the Periodic Review preparations for Control Period 5. We have reinforced this expectation in Guidance issued to the ORR."

So it is almost certain that the services in the publications today will be modified to some extent before new timetables are produced in six or seven years!.
 

WillPS

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I think the idea is to free up capacity on the Manchester - Sheffield and Sheffield - Nottingham services by diverting all the Manchester - Nottingham passengers onto a separate service.

For example, if you diverted the Norwich - Liverpool service away from Sheffield but replaced it by:

  • Extending the Hull - Sheffield service to Manchester
  • Extending the Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield "short" semi fast service to Nottingham (making that a half hourly service throughout)

...then Sheffield retains the same level of service to Manchester and Nottingham but the longer distance passengers (Nottingham to Manchester) have a faster journey than the current fifteen/twenty minute double back from Dore to Sheffield.

(just suggestions - not based on any RUS information etc)
Isn't there a bottleneck at Nottingham which would make this difficult?
 

burty76

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It would also deprive Sheffield of through services to Liverpool and Peterborough/Norwich, which I imagine would be quite a number of journeys
 

Failed Unit

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It would also deprive Sheffield of through services to Liverpool and Peterborough/Norwich, which I imagine would be quite a number of journeys
It would but it was a geniune suggestion in an RUS, but as we know many are just to get people talking. Peterbourgh - Sheffield is much quicker via Doncaster but as we know people like direct trains.
 

HSTEd

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So do we have an estimate on the number of additional units required for this project?
 

aformeruser

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So do we have an estimate on the number of additional units required for this project?
I think the North West enhancements were basically covered by the new 350s, slightly more than half of the 319s (with the other share going to FGW) and then cascading the DMUs released on to other services - which will mean Pacers and 150s would not be replaced by cascaded 319s. Although, there are now issues relating to when the 319s will be ready to cascade.

There are then extra EMUs now required for Yorkshire locals and North TPE electric services.
 

WatcherZero

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Alongside the Welsh Valleys taking stock cascaded from London like the 315's that would probably have been scrapped. You then have the question of which units could operate the midlands and southern central spine (bi-mode conversions would go some way) then would more IEP be ordered for the new line to Heathrow? Seriously there was no consideration given to rolling stock in this HLOS.
 

aformeruser

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It is not all that many weeks ago when my query as to a projected-missing (currently existing) TPE Manchester Airport to Newcastle existing service to serve Newcastle-area package-holiday airline passengers on a forum was explained away by the new operational needs of a Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough service to provide such a service to meet such airline passenger needs from the North-East. Exactly what is the position on this matter now with regards to the currently existing TPE services that run both to Middlesbrough and to Newcastle from Manchester Airport?
With Newcastle getting a faster half-hourly service, there should be the option to change trains and the journey time between Newcastle and the Airport shouldn't be extended. There will probably be an option for changing trains at a station where you can alight a Liverpool bound train and then board an Airport bound train from the same platform.

With Middlesbrough the situation is unclear. If they gained a Birmingham or London train in lieu of the Airport train then there may be more people who benefit than lose out.
 

John55

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With Newcastle getting a faster half-hourly service, there should be the option to change trains and the journey time between Newcastle and the Airport shouldn't be extended. There will probably be an option for changing trains at a station where you can alight a Liverpool bound train and then board an Airport bound train from the same platform.

With Middlesbrough the situation is unclear. If they gained a Birmingham or London train in lieu of the Airport train then there may be more people who benefit than lose out.
Can I refer you back to post 20 in this thread. The list of services that you and others are analysing in great detail is not a specification from the Government. It will most likely change long before the post Northern Hub timetable is implemented in 5-7 years so it is just as likely that Manchester Airport retains an hourly train to Newcastle as anything else.
 

aformeruser

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Can I refer you back to post 20 in this thread. The list of services that you and others are analysing in great detail is not a specification from the Government. It will most likely change long before the post Northern Hub timetable is implemented in 5-7 years so it is just as likely that Manchester Airport retains an hourly train to Newcastle as anything else.
I have also seen what TPE have submitted as a new North TPE timetable to ORR for May 2014 and there is no Newcastle-Manchester Airport service included as it's replaced by a Manchester Airport-York service and a Liverpool-Newcastle via Chat Moss service. This seems to be one step towards the illustrative example given by DfT.
 
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