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Revised NRCoC

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hairyhandedfool

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Have you ever actually tried either of these options? From my experience ticket office staff don't know the answers to any but the most obvious questions. The last time I mentioned the routing guide at one it was clear that the staff member I was talking to had never heard of it. In my area it seems they are trained to push you to buy advance tickets, even when you specifically ask for something else....

Then you should take that up with the TOC (or Passenger Focus), it is a requirement of their franchise to have the trained in all aspects of their job to ensure impartial retailling regulations. Quite how far you would get is another matter though.

....I also don't think it's fair to make the customer pay extra (for a phone call) to find out the details of the product they're buying....

I'll conceed that if the above applies, but you should be able to get the information without paying by speaking to staff, or maybe even e-mailing the customer relations dept..

....The full and complete conditions generally aren't available at the time of purchase. You can't even get a paper copy of the NRCoC from a ticket office these days, let alone the myriad other rules and regulations that your use of the product is subject to. Saying "check this website" or "phone this number" is not good enough....

The ticket office should still be able to print a copy of the NRCoC off for you. The conditions of the ticket must be made clear (or you should be told how to get them) when you buy the ticket, if you don't then the staff are not acting in accordance with the instructions from their TOC/Company.

....Those T&Cs are the conditions of the sale on the website, not the rules and regulations governing the product that you buy....

They should include the restrictions of the ticket if they are not otherwise displayed. It is a requirement to make the conditions known to the passenger (or tell them where the conditions can be found).

....Since it's actually impossible (some rules are only in the "manual", as are many clarifications and resolutions for conflicting rules) for a customer to get all the information regarding the product, are you recommending that nobody ever buy train tickets?....

Not at all, just that they should find the information as best they can. If staff are unable or unwilling to help, then I feel for the passenger. I would say that, in reality, the vast majority of information needed is not as hidden as you make out, or atleast is known amongst staff.

....The "manual" is secret....

The manual is not intended for public eyes though. Furthermore the information can be obtained from staff (noting the first point made).

....That's good, providing customers know the questions to ask!....

If they are unsure about something, they know what to ask.;)

....That assumes that every rail passenger is able to say with 100% certainty at the time of enquiry which service they want to use. Not always possible....

Not necessarily, although it may take time to obtain a complete list of all services the ticket is valid on.

...."Ensure the correct fare has been paid" is the same thing as "catch people who have, deliberately or not, disobeyed the rules"....

I guess that depends on how you define it. I would say there are occasions when that is the case, but I believe there are many times when it is not the case.

....Assuming there is a member of staff to ask, who actually knows the answer. Not a given in many circumstances...

Staff should know the answer or be able to find it in the majority of cases (given some extreme cases are debated on here with no clear answer).

....No, I'd prefer that all the rules were public and simple enough for a mere mortal to understand them....

The first part should be the case anyway, the second part, well, I guess that's down to each person to decide for themselves.

....Yes, as I've said, the NRCoC, etc. is public, it's the "manual" that isn't. It's the manual that's secret....

The manual is not intended for public eyes though. Furthermore the information can be obtained from staff (noting the first point made).

....Even those quoted T&Cs are not as straight forward as you make out, since tickets governed by them are valid on other trains/without reservations in certain circumstances.

But those are not the situations where people are frequently "caught out".
 
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MKB

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From the staff briefing document (linked earlier), for Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single; (also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns):

Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.​

I think the bit in bold means 04:29 on day two, not 04:29 on day three (since midnight, i.e. 00:00, is at the start of a day not the end). If so, then surely the new rules are clear that no travel at all is allowed after 04:29 on day 2, even if the journey could not be completed on day 1?

In which case, the reassurance given later in this thread is wrong, no? Am I missing something?

Also, this line is of concern:

In order to allow us to introduce the standardised time of 0429 when a ‘day’ ends in ticket terms, this condition is being amended to make clear that if the train is delayed and the ticket expires, customers will still be allowed to complete their journey.​

It deals with delays, but what about cancellations? If the last train is cancelled at the last minute and the TOC wants to call in a bus to take stranded passengers home with the prospect of something like a 3am arrival, I think I'd like the option of getting any train the following morning.
 

jon0844

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How would the lawyers make their money if court cases could be settled by a quick reading of the rules?

Well, true, except anyone who tries to test the rules will probably find it near impossible to ever take anything TO court in the first place!
 

Paul Kelly

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It's incredibly confusing since historically British Rail/Network Rail/ATOC has avoided even acknowledging the existence of midnight to avoid the ambiguity of which day it belongs to; times in rail timetables always skip from 23:59 to 00:01. Just further enforces the impression that the people writing these documents really don't have a clue at all.

FWIW I'm convinced (particularly because of the earlier comments by thedbdiboy who seems to know what he's talking about) it means 04:29 past midnight on the second day rather than 04:29 past midnight on the second day. But I have never heard such an awkward phrase in normal English usage. It could hardly have been written in a more confusing way if they tried :roll:
 

island

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Irish law defined midnight as the time at which a day ends. I wonder if the UK has the same.
 

jon0844

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I hope to God I don't ever meet my friendly RPI again at exactly midnight. He'll no doubt point out that my season ticket isn't valid between 2359 and 0001 and call the police. :)
 

Zoe

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All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.
So the outward portion of a Super Off Peak/Off Peak return will no longer be valid beyond Reading on the Up Night Riviera then?
 

Deerfold

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So the outward portion of a Super Off Peak/Off Peak return will no longer be valid beyond Reading on the Up Night Riviera then?

No as above what we *think* they mean is you have day 1. Then day 2. Then until 0430.

Not unambigously written though (plus ça change)
 

Deerfold

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But doesn't day 2 start at midnight?

And ends at midnight. We *think* they mean this midnight when they talk about the 0430 after midnight. Otherwise they're offering very little chance to recommence a journey the next day.
 

sheff1

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Or you could ask at your local station (if you have one) or, apparently, there is a new fangled device called a 'telephone' that means you can speak to people who aren't in the same room as you (it's witchcraft I tell you!:roll:).

You could ask, yes, but would you get a correct answer ??

When I last asked at Sheffield for a copy of the NRCoC, I was given one two editions out of date ! When I pointed this out, they denied any later versions existed.

Sheffield have also told me the Routeing Guide did not exist, even when I told them it was referenced in the NRCoC. I got the same answer from National Rail Enquiries - asking for routing advice it was 100% clear that the person I was speaking to had no knowledge of UK geography <(
 

thedbdiboy

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I too am disappointed to note that the overnight BoJ rules for Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles or the outward portion of Off Peak/Super Off Peak Returns appear to have removed the option for a passenger to break their journey if they wish.

These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.

Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From the staff briefing document (linked earlier), for Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single; (also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns):

Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.​

I think the bit in bold means 04:29 on day two, not 04:29 on day three (since midnight, i.e. 00:00, is at the start of a day not the end). If so, then surely the new rules are clear that no travel at all is allowed after 04:29 on day 2, even if the journey could not be completed on day 1?

Er, it is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading :oops:
 

Greenback

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Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.

You use the term 'need to do so'. This isn't the same as 'choose to do so'.

At the moment, I can buy a Llanelli - London ticket, travel out in the late morning and stay in Reading overnight, before continuing on the following morning (whilst being bound by any restrictions). I don't need to break my journey overnight, I choose to!

Will this sort of thing still be permitted? Or might I encounter difficulties?
 

Flamingo

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Feel free to send anything that needs proof-reading over here in future! ;)

Is that what you call it? I was reminded more of those medieval arguments about how many angels on the head of a pin myself! :lol::lol:
 

swt_passenger

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Right, now that we've decided once and for all that the 'railway day' really will be ending at 0429, why is every railway car park ticket I buy only ever valid until 2359 - and shouldn't it now be even more of a good idea to sort this out to match the actual train times? :D
 

Solent&Wessex

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A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Er, it is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading :oops:

Well we have not received the initial briefing document at work, let alone the follow up one.
 

snail

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You use the term 'need to do so'. This isn't the same as 'choose to do so'.

At the moment, I can buy a Llanelli - London ticket, travel out in the late morning and stay in Reading overnight, before continuing on the following morning (whilst being bound by any restrictions). I don't need to break my journey overnight, I choose to!
How is that a simple condition? Most people buying a train ticket want to travel from A to B. We moan about how arcane and obfuscated the ticketing and routeing rules are yet want to keep this kind of allowance. What's so wrong about buying two tickets if you want to stay somewhere overnight?
 

Paul Kelly

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It's simple because the the current text makes it clear that there are no restrictions on the circumstances in which you may break overnight. The new text says you may that you may break overnight if the journey cannot be completed, without defining what that means. So it's more complex. I have personal experience of the current clear wording being very helpful, when confronted with staff who didn't understand the restriction. But this is going to be lost. Someone more cynical than me might suggest the reason for that is so that individual TOCs may apply their own interpretations.
 

jon0844

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Right, now that we've decided once and for all that the 'railway day' really will be ending at 0429, why is every railway car park ticket I buy only ever valid until 2359 - and shouldn't it now be even more of a good idea to sort this out to match the actual train times? :D

FCC car parks have tickets valid until 0200 the next day, but the last train at Hatfield arrives at 0205. Not yet seen anyone from NCP hanging around yet. :)

Talking of times, saw a nice lunch time hot counter offer in Sainsbury's tonight, valid from "12pm to 14pm!". Damn company trying to make staff work longer hours by adding more hours into the day!
 

Greenback

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How is that a simple condition? Most people buying a train ticket want to travel from A to B. We moan about how arcane and obfuscated the ticketing and routeing rules are yet want to keep this kind of allowance. What's so wrong about buying two tickets if you want to stay somewhere overnight?

Did I say it was a simple condition? Although in my view it's a far simpler concept than soem of the restrictions a passneger may have to deal with.

Waht is worng with buying two tickets? Well, because it costs more to buy a return to Reading and then a return to London from there.

I assume you would be happy to return to the previous rules because it is nto something you personally do, despite the fact that it is soemthign that others do, even if it is a relatively tiny number?

I will say again what I have said in anothe rthread today. The car is a lot mroe flexible than rail travel. If you drive soemwhere, you cna alter your route, and stop off wherever and whenever you want.

Rail can never, ever be as flexible as the car, but every little piece of flexibility helps it to be just that bit more competitive.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Is that what you call it? I was reminded more of those medieval arguments about how many angels on the head of a pin myself! :lol::lol:
HA Ha!
I'd call it nit-picking, though there are some folks on here who seem to suffer from literalism (which of course is very useful and appropriate until taken too far).
But its a fair point, there's people here who will flag up an inconsistency or an undefined concept more quickly than a computer will 'find' code which attempts a 'divide by zero'. (And probably more quickly than the consultees in the TOCs - I'm assuming that ATOC really does consult before it publishes its ambiguous Conditions).

But please don't be hard on Angels. My Philosophy Lecturer was very keen on Aquinas, and I am grateful for all that I learned from him.
 

bnm

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You use the term 'need to do so'. This isn't the same as 'choose to do so'.

That was the bit of thedbdiboy's post that jumped out at me as well.

Need, choose, wish? It may be semantics but I'd like to see clarification from ATOC on this point, regarding an overnight BoJ on an Off Peak/Super Off Peak Single or the outward portion of an Off Peak/Super Off Peak Return.
 

sheff1

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You use the term 'need to do so'. This isn't the same as 'choose to do so'.

Indeed. This drip feed of 'clarifications' seems only to make things less clear.

The existing wording is explicit. Why does it need to be changed ?
 

yorkie

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Indeed. This drip feed of 'clarifications' seems only to make things less clear.

The existing wording is explicit. Why does it need to be changed ?
Agreed. And that's an important question. One we could perhaps ask of the DfT in an FOI request, and also our MPs. The DfT have to approve such changes. I'm told that RSP/ATOC aren't really asked to justify much to the DfT when it comes to changes of conditions/the Routeing Guide etc, - the DfT just accept it!:roll: Of course, that's just a rumour and may not be true, so we should use FOI etc to find out what the DfT have to say for themselves ;)
 

swt_passenger

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Agreed. And that's an important question. One we could perhaps ask of the DfT in an FOI request, and also our MPs. The DfT have to approve such changes. I'm told that RSP/ATOC aren't really asked to justify much to the DfT when it comes to changes of conditions/the Routeing Guide etc, - the DfT just accept it!:roll: Of course, that's just a rumour and may not be true, so we should use FOI etc to find out what the DfT have to say for themselves ;)

If DfT were to audit every proposed change to the routeing guide, they'd need a team of routeing guide experts as well. Then they'd probably be accused of micro-manageing the railway... :D
 

MKB

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Right, now that we've decided once and for all that the 'railway day' really will be ending at 0429, why is every railway car park ticket I buy only ever valid until 2359 - and shouldn't it now be even more of a good idea to sort this out to match the actual train times? :D

I noticed a couple of weeks ago that the Meteor-operated car park at Nuneaton was quoting 04:29 as the expiration time on its signage.

Actually, it makes no sense(other than from a money-raking standpoint) to expire tickets in the middle of the night.

Why should a business user parking from 07:00 to 19:00 pay less than a leisure traveller parking from 19:00 to 07:00?

Because UK late night train services are utter rubbish, I'm frequently in the later category having had to fork out for a hotel at my destination.

If you're going to charge for parking based on time slots (rather than number of hours parked), then it would be more sensible to set the expiry time at a point when the off-peak period ends and the peak period begins.
 

AlterEgo

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Indeed. This drip feed of 'clarifications' seems only to make things less clear.

The existing wording is explicit. Why does it need to be changed ?

It has now been clarified by ATOC in a brief that necessitation of break of journey is the customer's decision alone.

Hopefully all staff will read it!
 
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