Rickmansworth Station

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NSE

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Been on a few peak trains to Aylesbury (only going as far as Harrow though, so never been to Rickmansworth) and I know at peak times Chiltern services skip Rickmansworth. I checked wiki (I know) and it says its cause the platforms are too short for the peak 5/6 formations, but the Met uses the same platforms and are eight carriages. So is this true? or is it that the Chiltern Trains can physically fit into the platform but are not cleared. i.e. too far ahead of those screens that show down the train (I don't know if Chiltern is DOO).

Anyway if someone can explain then that'd be great :) Thanks
 
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bengley

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Chiltern's carriages are a lot longer than met carriages, so a 6 car 165/168 takes up more platform length than an 8 car A/S stock
 

Cherry_Picker

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Aye, as has been said a class 165/168 coach is 5 or 6 metres longer than the Met trains (depending on whether they are A or S stock) so short platforms are the reason. All services on the Met are DOO, in fact all Chiltern services south of Banbury except for the 67/mark 3 sets are DOO. Any passengers for Rickmansworth who board a train at Marylebone which isnt stopping there are just advised to change at Harrow on the Hill.
 

jopsuk

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An 8-car A or S stock train is in the region of 125-130m. A 6-car 165 or 168 formation at 115m should fit, but a 6-car formation at 138m is considerably longer than the Met line train.

It's a bit like the differences in carriage length between Pacers, Sprinters and Super Sprinters
 

RPM

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Although all of the above is correct, most of the Chiltern services that skip Rickmansworth actually consist of formations from 2 to 5 cars and are therefore short enough to stop there. The reason for not stopping there is more to do with passenger loadings.
 

DavyCrocket

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As has been said train length is the main factor.
Chiltern also do not call at some stations in the peak as they are already full at Great Missenden.
8 cars of A Stock is 129.36m and 8 cars of S stock is 133m
 

DXMachina

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I suspect demand management is a major factor also because Chiltern are a lot quicker to London than any Met service - their trains would pack out at Rickmansworth at certain times of day.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I suspect demand management is a major factor also because Chiltern are a lot quicker to London than any Met service - their trains would pack out at Rickmansworth at certain times of day.
Especially with the new S Stock which have virtually no seats , and the "improved" Met Line timetable which is almost all stations to London off peak from Amersham / Chesham to London will certainly encourage more people onto Chiltern !
 

alexjames

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I'm not sure that demand management has much to do with the running of "fast" trains away from Marylebone in the evening peak. Very few people waiting on the down platform at Ricky. And the trains are not fast because journey times to Aylesbury are much the same as slows. I'm mystified as to why they do it.

And the thoroughly annoying (to me, at least) absence of LU fasts from Harrow to Ricky at most times of the day has indeed shifted people off the Met. I use an Aylesbury train around midday to get from Harrow to Ricky. Loadings have broadly doubled since the Dec 2011 timetable change. Not a lot of people involved but as an off peak/against the main flow commuter I feel almost affronted when I have to search for an untenanted pair of seats.

I assume that Chiltern will be looking for an increased share of the revenue from journeys between Harrow, Amersham and intermediate stops. Anybody know how this works?
 

cle

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I doubt it as they still have the same number of trains between Harrow and Ricky - they just have a different stopping pattern.

I personally think Chiltern should take over west of Moor Park, with the Met only running to Watford (Junction). Ricky would need some work.

They obviously don't stop to penalise Travelcard holders who they hate. Trains should be run in flights - a fast leaves AVP and then a slow leaves Aylesbury 5 mins after the fast does, both 3tph.

Fast non-stop Amersham to Harrow. Also some Chesham trains (2ph) to supplement the suburbs.
 

DXMachina

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I personally think Chiltern should take over west of Moor Park, with the Met only running to Watford (Junction). Ricky would need some work.
The Met is heavily used - and Met services to Amersham and Chesham provide much-needed extra haulage out to Moor Park for Watford users.

I use that line a lot - Watford probably couldn't handle the extra services it would have to take in order to relieve pressure at Baker St

And Chesham to Aldgate passengers would hate it
Come to think of it Chesham's not even served by Chiltern. That would mean the need for an extra service.
 

Metrailway

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I'm not sure that demand management has much to do with the running of "fast" trains away from Marylebone in the evening peak. Very few people waiting on the down platform at Ricky. And the trains are not fast because journey times to Aylesbury are much the same as slows. I'm mystified as to why they do it.

And the thoroughly annoying (to me, at least) absence of LU fasts from Harrow to Ricky at most times of the day has indeed shifted people off the Met. I use an Aylesbury train around midday to get from Harrow to Ricky. Loadings have broadly doubled since the Dec 2011 timetable change. Not a lot of people involved but as an off peak/against the main flow commuter I feel almost affronted when I have to search for an untenanted pair of seats.

I assume that Chiltern will be looking for an increased share of the revenue from journeys between Harrow, Amersham and intermediate stops. Anybody know how this works?
In the old days (late BR era/early Chiltern era), the revenue from the stations Amersham - Rickmansworth would be split by the number of trains they provide off - peak. So at Amersham, where there is 2tph BR/Chiltern and 2tph Met to London off-peak, 50% of the revenue will go to BR whilst while 50% goes to LUL. BR/Chiltern would pay a small sum of money (a few £100s per year) for track access.

However, a post by an ex-director of Chiltern on a forum about Amersham in 2006 states:

The money that Chiltern get from LUL is governed by a survey system. Periodically LUL conduct a diary survey and from the results seek to determine how many people are travelling on which trains from which stations. As a result of this survey a certain amount of revenue is allocated to Chiltern from the LUL pot...

...as described above Chiltern do get revenue from LUL, but they also pay to use the infrastructure, to the tune of several million pound a year!
Now instead of the survey mentioned it is likely now that the revenue split is now done by analysis of Oyster data. So if this is the case, the current Met timetable will significantly decrease off-peak revenue from Amersham - Ricky stations for LUL.

I personally think Chiltern should take over west of Moor Park, with the Met only running to Watford (Junction). Ricky would need some work.
Marylebone wasn't closed in the 80s as Baker Street was unable to cope with Aylesbury traffic. The opposite also now applies - Marylebone will not be able to cope with an extra 4tph from via the Met. The signalling north of Amersham is also very limited so can't cope with a large number of extra trains.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Yeah, to add weight to this I cant see how it could happen, Chiltern dont have the resources to do it or the inclination to offer to do it. Why exactly do you think it should happen btw?
 

NSE

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Well thanks for the answers :) I'd like to see more metropolitan fasts off peak. Seems a waste having the underused infrastructure between wembley and harrow
 

NIMBUS

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And the trains are not fast because journey times to Aylesbury are much the same as slows.
Actually, in some case the limited stop services (I won't refer to them by the laughable title "fasts") are significantly slower than the all stations services.

For example, both the 07:39 AVP/07:44 AYS and the 08:09 AVP/08:14 AYS M-F up services (which run non-stop to Marylebone from Amersham), since the start of this current timetable take a whopping 62 minutes to complete the journey from Aylesbury (67 from AVP). That is compared to 52 minutes in previous timetables, albeit with an Amersham stop that was added last year to the 08:14. The all stations, off-peak service manages it in 56 minutes. Even the venerable old Class 115 units, on all stations stoppers, didn't breach the 1hr journey time in the late 80s/early 90s.

Likewise, the 19:04 down takes 64 minutes, a whole 13 of which are timetabled between Stoke Mandeville and Aylesbury. Reason - the train stands at the Stoke Road signal awaiting the passing of the Freightliner Cricklewood bins empties thorugh platform 2 (which have stood in Aylesbury North loop for over an hour, awaiting a path on the Risborough branch), whilst platform 3 is blocked by an up service. Once upon a time, the 19:09 (as it then was) was a stopping service, the 19:23 being the "fast" (which subsequently slipped forward to 19:20, then 19:15, now 19:04). If the paths are there on the Met, it would make sense to recast these two services, to ensure that the "fast" doesn't conflict on arrival at Aylesbury with the Freightliner empties.

There is intense dissatisfaction amongst Aylesbury commuters via the Met line at present, which has been raised at many Meet/Tweet The Managers sessions. There are promises of changes in December 2012 which, hopefully, will address some of the current problems.
 
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