right to be rerouted when delay expected >1 hour

[allotments]

As Rail Passengers' Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO) stated we’ve the right to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity when delay is estimated to be greater than 60 mins

I've been searching but can't find a reference which clearly shows what my rights are for a non-CIV journey such as when I have a LNR only ticket traveling Crewe-Euston when a delay over 1 hour is anticipated.

Am I automatically entitled to use another train operating company's service such as an Avanti train or do I have to specifically seek permission？

Help！

 

[Haywain]

Am I automatically entitled to use another train operating company's service such as an Avanti train or do I have to specifically seek permission？

I expect that @Watershed will be along to give his view in this, but you don’t have a right to just board another company’s train. Your right appears to be to be offered alternative transport or routing by the company that has let you down. I see this as one of those situations where knowing your rights isn’t terribly helpful when it comes to exercising them.

 

[507020]

I expect that @Watershed will be along to give his view in this, but you don’t have a right to just board another company’s train. Your right appears to be to be offered alternative transport or routing by the company that has let you down. I see this as one of those situations where knowing your rights isn’t terribly helpful when it comes to exercising them.

Other operators of course get no revenue from single operator tickets, but is there actually a right to ignore routing using the same company if you are delayed by over 60 minutes?

 

[Watershed]

I've been searching but can't find a reference which clearly shows what my rights are for a non-CIV journey such as when I have a LNR only ticket traveling Crewe-Euston when a delay over 1 hour is anticipated.

Am I automatically entitled to use another train operating company's service such as an Avanti train or do I have to specifically seek permission？

Help！

CIV doesn't really offer any notable rights that the NRCoT or PRO don't offer. It is just that it is the set of conditions applying to most international rail journeys.

The PRO is retained EU law. Article 16 is the relevant provision:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between:

(a)reimbursement of the full cost of the ticket, under the conditions by which it was paid, for the part or parts of his or her journey not made and for the part or parts already made if the journey is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant, a return service to the first point of departure at the earliest opportunity. The payment of the reimbursement shall be made under the same conditions as the payment for compensation referred to in Article 17; or

(b) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) continuation or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to the final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience

This is on top of the right to compensation, which applies unless you have accepted a refund. In many cases the compensation payable under the NRCoT and relevant Passenger's Charter will be more generous than the PRO minima anyway - but not always, or instance, the purported new "10pm the night before" exclusion in the NRCoT has no effect on the right to compensation under the PRO.

Specifically in terms of your right to be re-routed, if the next service that you are ordinarily allowed to take under your ticket's restrictions is expected to get you to your destination 61+ minutes late, you can exercise the right to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity under paragraph (b).

That, unfortunately, does not simply mean sitting down on another operator's train in breach of a TOC only restriction. It means that the operator at fault (in this case, LNR) would have to arrange ticket acceptance or take other measures (e.g. buying you a new walk-up ticket or issuing you with a zero fare) to help you get to your destination as soon as is reasonably practicable. If you are able to buy a ticket for the next Avanti service, for instance, then that is what LNR should do.

Unfortunately...

I expect that @Watershed will be along to give his view in this, but you don’t have a right to just board another company’s train. Your right appears to be to be offered alternative transport or routing by the company that has let you down. I see this as one of those situations where knowing your rights isn’t terribly helpful when it comes to exercising them.

I must somewhat concur with this view. Despite compliance with Article 16 of the PRO being a condition of each operator's SNRP (i.e. effectively their operating licence) since December 2019, staff awareness of the PRO is very limited. It is quite likely you may find that staff refuse to assist you, in breach of the TOC's obligations.

If this the case, it is up to you whether you accept the additional delay (which may mean you get more in delay compensation) or buy any requisite new ticket and seek to recover the cost of doing so from the TOC. Obviously the latter will get you to your destination the soonest but you may well face intransigence and incompetence in the response from the TOC, as reported in @trover's thread which you quoted from.

Unfortunately passenger rights are great in theory but the practical side of exercising them is often fraught with difficulty because the TOC's clearly couldn't give a toss about their obligations under the PRO or their SNRP, and the ORR has shown no interest in enforcing these widespread breaches of TOCs' SNRPs. It's a very difficult position.

 

[Starmill]

If you'd like to exercise the right, the only thing you can really do is:
- Speak to the station staff about your delay, explaining that you'd like assistance in getting to your destination as a result of the cancellation of your service, and point out that you believe you're entitled to rerouting because the delay is an hour or longer
- If (when) they inform you that there's no ticket acceptance, no alternative transport and no rerouting in place, ask them what the fastest way to your destination is anyway
- If that's something other than the option they've offered (which will be the next service by the same operator you were originally due to travel with), explain that you think you should be entitled to that, and try to get some evidence of all of this
- Buy a new ticket and travel on the alternative service, likely another train
- Complain to the original operator about their failure to honour your rights and request that they cover your costs arising as a result
- When they tell you they won't, sue them (but take care that in most cases you can only litigate after you've already exhausted the normal channels of communication)

You might even win! But frankly, unless you're prepared to take it all the way and accept a risk of loss even then, just give up before you've even started. It's much easier.

 

[allotments]

Thanks all for clarifying.

The most common related practical problem I encounter is early evening railway in evolving meltdown between Crewe and Euston, a pattern of cancellations and delays but no clarity from any source about how to work around for a passenger in my specific circumstances with a LNR only ticket.

Ticket acceptance usually won't be in place in a timely manner and if it is typically won't mention using Avanti.

Waiting indefinitely for help isn't a viable option.

There won't be a member of LNR staff to organise rerouting at Crewe because it's an Avanti station.

An Avanti service to London will then suddenly turn up (sometimes announced at unexpectedly short notice). It's either negotiate a way onto the train without the correct ticket by speaking to train manager or miss the opportunity.

Getting to a destination south of London becomes very risky if delays run over 2 hours.

It really would help if passengers had a right to reroute themselves and charge costs back later if necessary.

In any case the majority of rail staff are very understanding in these circumstances, tending not to be interested in ticketing but in ensuring passengers actually get to their destination before close of service.

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket office won't endorse travel, it only takes one Avanti train manager do do so, if you can find them prior to departure. It may be worth asking platform staff where the TM may be, as at some stations the TM may need to despatch from a certain point. If the first says no, keep trying...

 

[JonathanH]

It really would help if passengers had a right to reroute themselves and charge costs back later if necessary.

The circumstances would have to be very clear when it was and wasn't allowed. What are you suggesting the threshold should be?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks all for clarifying.

The most common related practical problem I encounter is early evening railway in evolving meltdown between Crewe and Euston, a pattern of cancellations and delays but no clarity from any source about how to work around for a passenger in my specific circumstances with a LNR only ticket.

Ticket acceptance usually won't be in place in a timely manner and if it is typically won't mention using Avanti.

Waiting indefinitely for help isn't a viable option.

There won't be a member of LNR staff to organise rerouting at Crewe because it's an Avanti station.

You can still contact LNR by other means, i.e. by phone, social media etc. LNR also should appoint other staff to act on their behalf but in practice...

An Avanti service to London will then suddenly turn up (sometimes announced at unexpectedly short notice). It's either negotiate a way onto the train without the correct ticket by speaking to train manager or miss the opportunity.

Getting to a destination south of London becomes very risky if delays run over 2 hours.

If the completion of your journey that day is in doubt, you have more rights - specifically, if it looks like you will otherwise become stranded, Avanti (or any other TOC that can help) become liable to assist you under NRCoT 28.2.

It really would help if passengers had a right to reroute themselves and charge costs back later if necessary.

They do, if they have made reasonable efforts to give the relevant TOC an opportunity to do so, but they have failed or refused to help.

So for instance if you ask them on Twitter to arrange ticket acceptance and they simply say "you'll have to wait for whenever our next train is", I'd imagine that would suffice.

In any case the majority of rail staff are very understanding in these circumstances, tending not to be interested in ticketing but in ensuring passengers actually get to their destination before close of service.

Whilst this has certainly been my experience of WMT staff, it hasn't been for Avanti staff. I've seen and heard of a lot of instances where Avanti staff (whether station or on-board) have tried to palm people off, usually using the disingenuous analogy "you wouldn't turn to BA if your Virgin flight was cancelled".

The circumstances would have to be very clear when it was and wasn't allowed. What are you suggesting the threshold should be?

I don't think @allotments is really proposing something that doesn't already exist in law.

 

[Starmill]

The circumstances would have to be very clear when it was and wasn't allowed. What are you suggesting the threshold should be?

Existing "thresholds" seem fine to me?

 

[Grumpy Git]

I’ve been at Crewe in the early evening with a ‘not valid on Avanti’ ticket but on a down journey to Liverpool a few times. The last time my train from Derby arrived as the LNR train was departing to Liverpool with a 90+ minute wait for the next one.

A Liverpool bound Pendo arrived soon enough on P6. I asked the train guard if I could travel (explaining the long wait), and he let me on, happy days.

 

[JonathanH]

Existing "thresholds" seem fine to me?

A delay of 61 minutes or more that can't be resolved by taking another train run by the same operator?

 

[Starmill]

A delay of 61 minutes or more that can't be resolved by taking another train run by the same operator?

Yes, with additional protection on top if, on paper, the disruption to service causes the last connection of the day to be missed.

One thing which would assist in practical terms would be if more station staff were given access to an internal booking portal which could issue new rail tickets, order taxis or reserve hotel rooms. These things are standard in the corporate world, nearly every large firm in the country will have one, and some TOCs even already have one for their own staff.

This way, station staff would be able to get customers to where they need to be by taxi or purchase a new ticket for onward travel and have it invoiced to whoever caused the original delay. Currently a mess of authorisations and processes exists which are often not even permitted to be engaged with by station staff. For example at Northern some station staff used to be able to book a taxi themselves rather than needing to have control order it. This facility was then removed, but restored after feedback that all it did was slow things down and actually created more work for the station staff in some cases.

Avanti West Coast even use rail warrants for this sometimes, which is hilarious to me but there it is. Warrants are still going strong after all these years.

 

[londonbridge]

Whilst this has certainly been my experience of WMT staff, it hasn't been for Avanti staff. I've seen and heard of a lot of instances where Avanti staff (whether station or on-board) have tried to palm people off, usually using the disingenuous analogy "you wouldn't turn to BA if your Virgin flight was cancelled".

I once visited the US on a tour group, the flights were with American Airlines but they messed up and we missed our flight from Boston to Gatwick. They managed to get ten of us, myself included, onto a Virgin flight and the rest had to spend the night in the airport before flying home the following day.

 

[allotments]

If the completion of your journey that day is in doubt, you have more rights - specifically, if it looks like you will otherwise become stranded, Avanti (or any other TOC that can help) become liable to assist you under NRCoT 28.2

Thanks @Watershed for that reference

NRCoT 28.2 states
“Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is
valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide
you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide
overnight accommodation for you.”

This is really what I'm looking for.

I normally travel on Friday 18:33 CRE-EUS and there's another similar LNR service at 19:35.

If cancellations/delays extend beyond 19:35 then there is no viable LNR route plan from Crewe to arrive in Euston in time for me to catch the last southbound Thameslink train 23:22 from St Pancras to London Bridge then on to Slade Green.

I won't use the tube because I'm travelling with a bicycle. Elizabeth Line Farringdon - Abbey Wood last train 23:06.

When the 19:35 CRE-EUS is cancelled or likely to be cancelled because of a sequence of cancellations that day that should be the trigger for me to invoke NRCoT 28.2 and use an Avanti service to ensure I can complete my journey. Usually there will be a series of delayed southbound Pendolinos at Crewe to jump on.

How does that sound?

 

[Watershed]

Thanks @Watershed for that reference

NRCoT 28.2 states
“Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is
valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide
you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide
overnight accommodation for you.”

This is really what I'm looking for.

I normally travel on Friday 18:33 CRE-EUS and there's another similar LNR service at 19:35.

If cancellations/delays extend beyond 19:35 then there is no viable LNR route plan from Crewe to arrive in Euston in time for me to catch the last southbound Thameslink train 23:22 from St Pancras to London Bridge then on to Slade Green.

I won't use the tube because I'm travelling with a bicycle. Elizabeth Line Farringdon - Abbey Wood last train 23:06.

When the 19:35 CRE-EUS is cancelled or likely to be cancelled because of a sequence of cancellations that day that should be the trigger for me to invoke NRCoT 28.2 and use an Avanti service to ensure I can complete my journey. Usually there will be a series of delayed southbound Pendolinos at Crewe to jump on.

How does that sound?

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. I think the fact you have a bike is going to add complexity (you're supposed to have a reservation to take one on an Avanti service) but it might actually work in your favour here. Though of course some irreverent staff may try and suggest cycling across London!

 

[allotments]

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. I think the fact you have a bike is going to add complexity (you're supposed to have a reservation to take one on an Avanti service) but it might actually work in your favour here. Though of course some irreverent staff may try and suggest cycling across London!

I use a full size folding bike for precisely these scenarios! However it's not much fun dealing with folded bike and heavy panniers moving any distance in tube stations involving escalators and passageways, so I avoid. I often choose to cycle between London termini because it's fast, convenient and enjoyable but for the purpose of passenger's rights my default route would include cycling between Euston and St Pancras.

 

[hkstudent]

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. I think the fact you have a bike is going to add complexity (you're supposed to have a reservation to take one on an Avanti service) but it might actually work in your favour here. Though of course some irreverent staff may try and suggest cycling across London!

In general response to the staff, I would claim not having front or rear lights that would allow me to legally cycle at night.
(Add more ounce if it was raining.)
I guess staff can't advocate illegal activities?

 

[Watershed]

In general response to the staff, I would claim not having front or rear lights that would allow me to legally cycle at night.
(Add more ounce if it was raining.)
I guess staff can't advocate illegal activities?

I would have thought that would be sufficient reason for staff to "accept" it's an unfeasible suggestion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In general response to the staff, I would claim not having front or rear lights that would allow me to legally cycle at night.
(Add more ounce if it was raining.)
I guess staff can't advocate illegal activities?

It isn't a stupid suggestion, and a set of lights so you could do so would make an awful lot of sense (do you really, genuinely never cycle at night?). Passengers also need to reasonably assist in mitigating their delay if able, and as the Tube and taxis will not normally take a bicycle you do need to accept that the alternative options are considerably reduced if you have one, which might necessitate riding it over the typically short distance those two modes would be used for.

 

[Starmill]

I would have thought that would be sufficient reason for staff to "accept" it's an unfeasible suggestion.

It isn't a stupid suggestion, and a set of lights so you could do so would make an awful lot of sense (do you really, genuinely never cycle at night?). Passengers also need to reasonably assist in mitigating their delay if able, and as the Tube and taxis will not normally take a bicycle you do need to accept that the alternative options are considerably reduced if you have one, which might necessitate riding it over the typically short distance those two modes would be used for.

I would agree it would actually be a sensible suggestion, but it's just a suggestion. The customer doesn't have to take it and it wouldn't affect their rights if they didn't.

 

[Birmingham]

I think because of the context of these two TOCs, Avanti accepting WMT tickets out of goodwill is the last thing they’ll want to do if they can help it. Allowing a slight deviation around a permitted route to avoid disruption, sure, taking the train before your booked one in times of disruption, perhaps, but this may just come across as trying to get a cheap ride on the fast train having only been willing to pay for the slow train.

I am not commenting on the contractual position: just how things may go with staff on the ground.

 

[Starmill]

I think because of the context of these two TOCs, Avanti accepting WMT tickets out of goodwill is the last thing they’ll want to do if they can help it. Allowing a slight deviation around a permitted route to avoid disruption, sure, taking the train before your booked one in times of disruption, perhaps, but this may just come across as trying to get a cheap ride on the fast train having only been willing to pay for the slow train.

I am not commenting on the contractual position: just how things may go with staff on the ground.

Attitudes like that are unfortunately commonplace, particularly among staff who think that they work for a "better" TOC. The reality is that there are lots of circumstances where WMT will get Avanti West Coast out of bother such that it works both ways. It's an attitude which has very little to do with the facts and a lot to do with a superiority complex.

 

[hkstudent]

It isn't a stupid suggestion, and a set of lights so you could do so would make an awful lot of sense (do you really, genuinely never cycle at night?). Passengers also need to reasonably assist in mitigating their delay if able, and as the Tube and taxis will not normally take a bicycle you do need to accept that the alternative options are considerably reduced if you have one, which might necessitate riding it over the typically short distance those two modes would be used for.

If you are on a bike trip and try to minimise the weight, while it is in the mid of summer with long daylight from 5am to 8pm, you would not need to bring the lights out, especially if your home is within walkable distance from destination station.

Attitudes like that are unfortunately commonplace, particularly among staff who think that they work for a "better" TOC. The reality is that there are lots of circumstances where WMT will get Avanti West Coast out of bother such that it works both ways. It's an attitude which has very little to do with the facts and a lot to do with a superiority complex.

And I guess this may not help with "nationalisation"

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are on a bike trip and try to minimise the weight, while it is in the mid of summer with long daylight from 5am to 8pm, you would not need to bring the lights out, especially if your home is within walkable distance from destination station.

LED lights are tiny. And this sort of thing can happen.

 

[allotments]

West Midlands Trains duty of care: LNR passengers abandoned on platform

sequence of events： 18:33 LNWR train Crewe - Euston (EUS) delayed 82 minutes at Milton Keynes (MKC) due to fatality near Bletchley. Departs MKC makes unscheduled stop Hemel Hempstead (HML) 21:56. Passengers requested to disembark at HML and join following train ~ announcement “3 trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

As I described in the thread quoted above, last year I arrived four and a half hours late into Euston after 1am having set out on the 18:33 CRE-EUS.

Passengers had been abandoned at
Hemel and there was no assistance at Euston with onward transport to get to destination.

I rode my bike to Trafalgar Square, folded it and waited for a night bus. Home at 4am.

Yes I always have lights.

After that experience and other WCML delay/cancellation scenarios most recently Fri 17 June when I got as far as Chester on my way from North Wales to Crewe before realising that abandoning the journey and restarting next day was a better option than continuing into certain delay, arrival well after midnight and uncertain how late.

Perhaps I should develop a decision tree to guide what action to take at different decision points: home - Llandudno Junction - Chester - Crewe. Part of that can be if 19:35 CRE-EUS is cancelled use NRCoT 28.2 and travel on other TOC if suitable train available.

It seems better to have a prepared plan than to hesitate searching, asking for help and evaluating options when one of those options - typically an Avanti southbound service - has just pulled in to the platform.

 

[hkstudent]

Some side question, do PRO entitle passengers a definite right in getting refreshments if delays is over 1 hour?

NRCOT 28.5 says, passengers may get something if train companies offer that.

 

[Watershed]

Some side question, do PRO entitle passengers a definite right in getting refreshments if delays is over 1 hour?

NRCOT 28.5 says, passengers may get something if train companies offer that.

Yes, "in reasonable relation to the waiting time, if they are available on the train or in the station, or can reasonably be supplied" under Article 18(2)(a). Indeed that's why NRCoT 28.5 was added.

Funny how the RDG were able to repeat something relatively inconsequential, like the right to refreshments, from the PRO in the NRCoT - but awfully conveniently overlooked the right to re-routeing...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I always have lights.

Very sensible.

While it can be a pain in terms of replacement buses/taxis, having a bike can be an advantage as if necessary it can be ridden, though the distance individuals can/will want to ride does vary a bit by fitness and the type of bike* and what other luggage they have. Making a long journey without the one (small and light) element that would allow you to ride it in such an emergency seems imprudent. It doesn't need to be car-spec lights with a battery pack, for an emergency urban ride you just need the legal minimum, and perhaps a hi-vis as well if you feel you need to mitigate weak but legal lighting. Minimum legally acceptable LED lights are tiny these days and weigh next to nothing.

* If you're an accomplished road rider with a £5K lightweight road bike then Birmingham to London might not be entirely off the agenda rather than be stranded, but a Brompton from MKC to Bletchley may still be useful rather than walking carrying it awkwardly or pushing.

 

[MetalMicky]

If you'd like to exercise the right, the only thing you can really do is:
- Speak to the station staff about your delay, explaining that you'd like assistance in getting to your destination as a result of the cancellation of your service, and point out that you believe you're entitled to rerouting because the delay is an hour or longer
- If (when) they inform you that there's no ticket acceptance, no alternative transport and no rerouting in place, ask them what the fastest way to your destination is anyway
- If that's something other than the option they've offered (which will be the next service by the same operator you were originally due to travel with), explain that you think you should be entitled to that, and try to get some evidence of all of this
- Buy a new ticket and travel on the alternative service, likely another train
- Complain to the original operator about their failure to honour your rights and request that they cover your costs arising as a result
- When they tell you they won't, sue them (but take care that in most cases you can only litigate after you've already exhausted the normal channels of communication)

You might even win! But frankly, unless you're prepared to take it all the way and accept a risk of loss even then, just give up before you've even started. It's much easier.

Do you think it would help by printing off and carrying a copy of the NR Conditions of Travel and showing the relevant paragraph to the staff member? Also is there anything to stop you from recording the conversation on your phone to later use as evidence that you were denied the facility?