Right to use alternative route/service/TOC with advance single

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by SouthStand, 16 Nov 2011.

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  1. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    I have a booked advance single (Saturday 19 Nov) as follows:

    Burnley Manchester Road 15:27
    Leeds 16:39

    Leeds 17:05
    Peterborough 18:31

    Peterborough 19:28
    Spalding 19:54

    Now, according to the pdf on the East Coast website the 17:05 no longer exists. There is a 16:45 and a 18:35 service from Leeds. The latter arrives long after the last Spalding train has gone.

    The website shows a 14:57 from Burnley Man Road with changes at Preston and Birmingham. Is there any way to use this route to avoid the (potential) short change time in Leeds?
     
    Last edited: 16 Nov 2011
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  3. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    i suspect here that you've booked a ticket before the ECML diversions were decided. i suggest you contact east coast customer services and see what they suggest, im not on the computer but Im guessing a clause in the nrcoc will help you.
     
  4. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    The didn't reply to my message on their web form on Sunday so I rung them this evening. Basically they didn't want to know. I said I was trying to avoid them a PBO to SPA taxi fare if I missed the short connection time at Leeds and they said they don't pay for the taxi anyway!
     
  5. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Nonsense. They must convey you as you have a ticket which is evidence of a contract between you an East Coast. They should offer to put you on an alternative.
     
  6. sonic2009

    sonic2009 Established Member

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    what seat reservations do you hold? i suspect northern don't issue seat coupons.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Im with alterego on this one as well. East Coast have sold you a ticket so must help you out.
     
  7. Greenback

    Greenback Emeritus Moderator

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    I agree. Personally, I always try and avoid using web forms and the phone. I like to send an email or even an old fashioned letter. It is not so easy to ignore these, and there are fewer of the technical problems that seem to beset web forms. (I've sent a lot of enquiries in this way in my time, and the vast m,ajority have not been answered, which is why I don't use them now).

    As to the phone, there is, in my opinion, mor eof risk of someone providing incorrect information. Putting things in writing usually means that a more considered, and more accurate response is given.
     
  8. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    The only seat reservation I have is for the East Coast leg of the journey.
     
  9. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    If that train is cancelled (or removed from the timetable) then they must find you an alternative service. You have paid for the right to make that journey and make that journey you must!

    If they put you on the later service, then all well and good. That is what they should do.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    That's true, but the OP travels this Saturday and I rather suspect a letter or email wouldn't be turned around in this short time.
     
  10. Bungle73

    Bungle73 On Moderation

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    EC take ages to answer emails (2 weeks usually).
     
  11. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    The phone service wasn't much better. First call told me to ring the number I'd just rung! Second call I was disconnected (on purpose?, you decide). Third call, eventually spoke to an English lass who after putting me on hold several times didn't actually help at all. Quality :)
     
  12. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Id be tempted to ring them back and stand my ground if I were you. Say "so I've paid for this journey and given you £x, why can I not travel?"

    I'm afraid I am not surprised with EC's response to you, but I won't elaborate on an open forum.
     
  13. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    I would suggest you are justified in:
    Travelling on whatever Leeds-PBO EC gets to PBO around 18:45 (I believe you will be dragged Newark-Lincoln-Sleaford-Spalding-Peterborough) - note 1A43 16:45 from Leeds to Peterborough arrives PBO 19:44, you want to be on 1A40 15:35 from Leeds, arr PBO 18:38.
    -getting a train from Burnley that gives at least the minimum connection time in Leeds
    -or the later one from Leeds if that suits your circumstances better

    Could always ask East Coast if they'll stop at Spalding especially for you - in BR days when they diverted the HSTs through Lincoln they would always call there, to help people for Newark and indeed Lincoln itself.
     
  14. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    If you stick with you given itinerary and arrive at Leeds at 1639, you might be able to catch the 1645 if you're fast enough, in which case all is good.

    Alternatively there is a Northern service at 1720 arriving Doncaster at 1807. You might be told at Leeds by EC staff to do this. This connects with the 1820 EC service from Doncaster which arrives at Peterborough at 2028. Your last connection to Spalding is at 2028 so if you end up on this train you can always ask the guard to try and see if they will hold the Spalding train for you.

    Failing all that and missing your connection will mean EC having to sort out alternative arrangements for you. They are not allowed to leave you stranded at Peterborough as your contract with them is to convey you to Spalding. Don't believe what you're told on the phone.
     
  15. reb0118

    reb0118 Established Member Fares Advisor

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    EC are still liable to get you to your final destination, however I think what the helppoint? means that as there are engineering works it is Network Rail who pay for the taxi.

    Now as Network rail do not usually deal with the fare paying public on a day to day basis it falls to a TOC to organise this and to bill Network rail accordingly.

    In any case you as a passenger don't need to know this but just want to get to your destination at a reasonable time with no hassle.

    Poor show all round!
     
  16. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    What actually did happen?

    I'm interested to know from the OP, as he travelled on Saturday!
     
  17. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    Train arrived Burnley 5 minutes late and it took the police a few minutes to board 200 Leeds fans. Arrived in Leeds 16:45 just in time to see the East Coast service depart. Spoke to the East Coast staff on the platform who weren't overly helpful (pattern emerging here) and eventually left Leeds on the 18:35.

    On arrival at Peterborough went to the office on platform 2 and the young lassie said there was no more trains to Spalding and that I would have to get a taxi. Pointed out to her that I had an advance ticket and after checking my tickets and the Burnley arrival time they organised a taxi for me.

    Long day, wouldn't recommend travelling on the diversionary route!
     
  18. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Glad it worked out alright at the end. :lol:

    Dirty Leeds. :-?
     
  19. Olympian

    Olympian Member

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    I presume you've now applied to East Coast to get your money back under their "Delay Repay" scheme because a delay to their service (ie the train you were booked on didn't run as detailed in your itinerary) resulted in you arriving at your destination over an hour late?
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2011
  20. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    I was just about to suggest this!

    East Coast have scored rather an own goal here. They've ended up spending money on a taxi, and no doubt will have to compensate the OP for his inconvenience under Delay Repay. I've no idea what this would cost them, but issuing a written authority allowing him to take the earlier service would have cost nothing.
     
  21. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    Why should he have left Burnley earlier?. His contract was to leave at the time given when he booked, why should he change?
     
  22. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Please do not make unsubstantiated statements like these.

    Can you tell me why the OP should have left earlier? What should have happened if he couldn't leave earlier due to other commitments?
     
  23. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Spoken to yorkie and I apologise for the earlier offensive message
    Was his 'contract' to leave at the printed time, or to arrive at the printed time?

    The way I read this thread, the OP left Burnley on a train that was unlikely to connect with the last peterborough-spalding.

    Everyone is sticking up for the passenger here, but the way I read it 'the ralway' is shelling out for a taxi that is shouldn't really have to (and ditto delay repay) - the crux of the problem is that some booking site allowed a ticket to be booked on a day that engineering wasn't confirmed.

    The OP asked here what he should do, and was given a number of points on here. He knew what time the last pbo-spalding was.

    His train 1A28 or whatever it was had been retimed to leave Leeds 90 minutes earlier due to the divert. In my opinion he (being in possession of full information from this website) ought to have left Burnley earlier (noting this may not have been possible due to the rest of his personal circumstances etc).

    To me it seems like exploiting a £10 advance fare ticket to claim a £40 taxi ride - but I am sure it wasn't like that (but this is how it seems to me).

    I am intrigued however as to why the OP didn't stay on his blackpool-york through to York or get a leeds-doncaster local, instead of waiting 90 minutes at Leeds - was this really the advice of staff at Leeds?
     
  24. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Neither. Are you familiar with the NRCoC?

    East Coast could and should have avoided this by issuing a written authority to replace his ticket, ensuring he could take the 'earlier' train given that they had effectively removed the train he was booked on.

    East Coast's fault entirely. And their problem to fix.

    He only asked because East Coast had been incredibly unhelpful from the outset. This was a very simple problem to solve, trust me on this.

    Why?
     
  25. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Are you saying here that EC should have:

    -replied to the OP's enquiry with a letter authorising earlier travel

    -of its own motion, written to all passengers already booked on the 17:05 lds-kgx (and all other amended trains) with details of the changes? Could EC have done this for tickets booked at other toc sites/rsh/trainline/in person at ticker offices of its own or other TOCs?
     
  26. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    Yes.

    No - not practical.
     
  27. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Agree fully with you. EC are certainly not innocent here
     
  28. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Established Member

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    I'm pretty sure EC could have contacted anyone who used the WebTIS engine (EC, LM, and so on) and informed them of the problem. However people using other engines (like the Trainline) will not have given East Coast permission to access their personal information. The Data Protection Act precludes that option.

    Hopefully, terms and conditions will change enabling TOCs to have access to the details of everyone who is going to use their service. I'm hopeful that may enable TOCs to pre-emptively contact customers if they need to withdraw their train.

    It's not a case of being innocent, they're daft! They've just cost themselves Delay Repay and a taxi fare! And all because they were not prepared to issue a piece of paper.
     
  29. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The OP is absolutely in the right and was under no obligation to leave earlier whatsoever.

    The only question I'd have for the OP is what happened at Leeds after 16:45 and why another train was not boarded until 18:35, if EC staff advised waiting at Leeds for nearly 2 hours them I am quite shocked at this, given that a sensible suggestion would have either be to change at York or Doncaster for an onward earlier EC train (ex-Newcastle/Edinburgh) to Peterborough.
     
  30. SouthStand

    SouthStand Member

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    Just to clarify, I attended the football match at Burnley and could not have left on an earlier train (they run hourly to Leeds). I hoped I would just catch the connection but it wasn't to be.

    After advice from here, I did mention to the East Coast staff the option of leaving Leeds on the local train and picking up the express at Doncaster, but they didn't seem to understand this concept and stated there wasn't a connection at Doncaster even though I showed it to them on their printout. Besides, the express was due in at Peterborough just as the last Spalding train left at 20:28 and they said they wouldn't hold the local service for a few minutes.

    They said wait for the 18:35 which I did. I haven't applied under the delay repay scheme as I think the staff at Peterborough kept my ticket. It was only a £11.25 advance single anyway.
     
  31. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Did you mention that you would need it for Delay Repay to the person who took it off you?
     
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