Right when using split tickets (including advance) and incorrect information online

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by gray1404, 3 May 2015.

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  1. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Can I clarify guys which under what basis of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage your allowed to split tickets if one of them is an advance ticket.

    For me I use my concessionary travel pass issued by Merseytravel PTE for travel from Formby to either Liverpool Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway before often joining a long distance train on an Advance ticket. Although I've always been under the impression that if my first train was late and I missed my train that I was booked onto the Advance fare for, they would have to accommodate me on the next train if I was to mix my Advance booked train due to a delay when traveling on my concessionary travel pass (provided I allowed enough time for my connections to make it valid).

    In the same way if on my return journey, the service I am booked onto on the Advance ticket, if it was to be delayed, they would have provide a taxi back to Formby if I missed the last connection (provided I allowed enough time and the connections were valid).

    If the above is true is it written down anywhere? I am wondering where these passengers right formally come from?

    Also, this the following statement from the split ticket guide on Money Saving Expert incorrect: -

    "There may be a problem if you need to change trains and you're delayed before you split tickets. For example, if you're going from London to Durham via York and delays mean you miss your time-specific train going onto Durham, you may have to pay extra. However, you could also claim compensation for train delays. See our Train Delays guide for more details."

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-train-tickets

    They are implying there that if you are using split tickets and you miss a specific booked train on an Advance ticket due to a delay, you are not covered and must pay more for the next service! Surely this is incorrect?
     
  2. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I recommend you read our Fares Guide, we have a section on using combinations of tickets, see Split ticketing

    This is covered by contract law; you have formed a contract. However some people disagreed (causing me to argue with certain people in discussions that could reach many pages long!) and this was clarified a few years ago. See the Advance tickets section of our Fares Guide (the PDF document attached to that post is an extract from the internal Knowledge Base).

    MSE are indeed incorrect. Martin Lewis is not an expert on train tickets and presumably doesn't have the time to check that his staff are giving out incorrect information. People have advised MSE that some of their info is wrong, but you can't get a response out of them, so I think they're too big for their boots.

    Stick to RailUK instead!
     
  3. SickyNicky

    SickyNicky Verified Rep

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    And just to add weight to that, at TrainSplit (which is the only site that actually calculates and sells split tickets) it's made completely clear that if you're delayed you will be entitled to take the next train* to complete your journey.

    Having operated for a year or so, there has yet to be a single case where a customer has complained that this hasn't happened. I know people like to knock the rail industry sometimes, but you have to give them credit for dealing with this.

    * if you have a TOC specific ticket you must only use trains operated by that TOC, unless a member of staff authorises you otherwise. In those circumstances, I strongly recommend that you have the ticket office stamp and endorse your tickets to that effect.
     
  4. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    The fact of one of your tickets being an 'Advance' ticket type is of no consequence in applying the principles of being conveyed to your destination - by a later train if neccesary due to a delay on an earlier 'leg' of the journey.
     
  5. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    and just to confirm my Merseytavel PTE issued concessionary travel pass that is valid on ME, is a valid use of a split ticket (i.e. it does matter that I'm using this along with an Advance and havn't paid a fare for that bit of the journey)?
     
  6. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    This is probably a matter for davenewcastle to comment on.

    On the one hand, I see that your free pass is a valid ticket, but on the other hand there is no 'consideration' ie payment.
     
  7. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    ok I'll wait to see what davenewcastle has to say :)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    OK ill wait to see what davenewcastle has to say :)
     
  8. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Does anyone know if the Merseytravel PTE concessionary pass terms and conditions are available online. I looked and couldn't find anything. Are they even issued subject to the NRCoC?
     
  9. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    On the back of the actual pass it says: -

    ..."It is not transferable and is issued subject to the bye-laws, regulations and conditions of each company on whose vehicles, vessels and premises it is used...."

    That would imply that use of such a pass on the Merseyrail network (or other rail services within Merseyside) would be subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

    Even though no condiseration has occurred on the part of the customer, it PTE would be paying the TOC (e.g. ME) for honouring the passes.
     
  10. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Good question!
    I do not see any reason for 'consideration' to be a factor in allowing (or dissallowing) the Terms and Conditions under which the National Rail ticket is sold, used and accepted for travel.
    However, reading Condition 18 of the NRCoC suggests that this situation wasn't anticipated when the section was drafted, and so could be considered as 'undefined'. Nevertheless, Merseyrail is included in the list of participating Railway Companies, so I would hope and expect that the combination was valid. There are situations in which contractural relations are formed without 'consideration', notably the principles of promissory estoppel (previously know as equitable estoppel). The practical benefit from a 'consideration' is in demonstrating the intention to be bound by contractural terms; but it doesn't follow that, in the absence of 'consideration', that the parties did NOT intend the agreement to be fulfilled, and the posession of both tickets is, in my view, adequate evidence of an agreement.

    As a matter of general advice which might help you, it can assist staff inspecting tickets if you are able to provide a record of the journey showing the delay which gave rise to your travel on a later train. While not always possible or practical, you can see that it would quickly differentiate the passenger disrupted from the passenger starting late.
     
    Last edited: 7 May 2015
  11. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Thanks Dave for the advise. So it appears that a concessionary travel pass used on ME would be done so under the NRCoC so therefore you would be covered when traveling on an advance ticket too.

    So although it is not an express requirment that the customer sets proof, it could be helpful. What sort of evidene could a passenger get at the time? I guess it could be something like a screen shot from National Rail or a photo of a canceled or delayed train on a departure board/screen. I very much doubt ME staff would endorse the back of the advance ticket to say you missed your connection. Personally, I don't use a smartphone nor does my phone have a camera.

    So if the passenger is not required to gather such evidence, is it up to the staff on train to either give you the benefit of the doubt or get their staff at their control centre to check if you first train (in my case FBY to LPY on ME) was delayed/canceled?

    Thanks!
     
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