Rights if no room for cycle on unreservable train

[CosherB]

As trains and bicycles are 'green' transport, I think it's appalling that bike storage on trains is so ad hoc or often non existant. The combination of the bike to the station, the train for the main part of the journey, and the bike from station to final destination is a transport ideal.

It should be government policy that all TOCs provide adequate bike space on all trains, and that the railways should be 'bike friendly' (reading this thread it seems that is sometimes far from the case).

When I were a lad the 1500VDC EMUs on our local (Altrincham) line had capacious guards compartments for bikes, prams etc. even the previous generation WCML expresses had DVTs with loads of freight space.

I appreciate that provision for bikes will impact pax space to some extent, but that should be accepted in design of trains.

My brother used to travel Didcot to Paddington frequently by HST, first class. He had a Brompton foldable bike which went on the luggage rack. Until the guards got to know him, he was always challenged for his 1st class ticket (he cycled in T shirt and shorts, his work clothes in his rucksac to change into at work). Perceptions, eh? A cyclist in T shirt and shorts... in 1st?

 

[GB]

As trains and bicycles are 'green' transport, I think it's appalling that bike storage on trains is so ad hoc or often non existant. The combination of the bike to the station, the train for the main part of the journey, and the bike from station to final destination is a transport ideal.

It should be government policy that all TOCs provide adequate bike space on all trains, and that the railways should be 'bike friendly' (reading this thread it seems that is sometimes far from the case).

When I were a lad the 1500VDC EMUs on our local (Altrincham) line had capacious guards compartments for bikes, prams etc. even the previous generation WCML expresses had DVTs with loads of freight space.

I appreciate that provision for bikes will impact pax space to some extent, but that should be accepted in design of trains.

My brother used to travel Didcot to Paddington frequently by HST, first class. He had a Brompton foldable bike which went on the luggage rack. Until the guards got to know him, he was always challenged for his 1st class ticket (he cycled in T shirt and shorts, his work clothes in his rucksac to change into at work). Perceptions, eh? A cyclist in T shirt and shorts... in 1st?

The reason bike storage on trains is so "ad hoc" is because the use of bikes is ad hoc. Quite simply bike storage does not make the TOC money....bums on seats do.

 

[Jobsworth]

There's a real problem here with optional bike reservations. What happens if you reserve but all the spaces are already taken by non-reserved bikes when you try to board? Compulsory bike reservation would seem to be the obvious solution but when you are a commuter, can you guarantee to be on the same train every day? Or do you cover yourself by selfishly reserving on 2 or 3 consecutive trains, depriving others? Many people have 2 bikes, one of which is kept at the station nearest to work which avoids having to actually put their bike on the train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It should be government policy that all TOCs provide adequate bike space on all trains, and that the railways should be 'bike friendly' (reading this thread it seems that is sometimes far from the case)....

So a London area commuter train should have space for bikes and leave passengers standing?

There is an ideal situation and there is practicality, and practicality always wins.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As trains and bicycles are 'green' transport, I think it's appalling that bike storage on trains is so ad hoc or . . . .

Your post takes a clear position which is in opposition to Railway policy, custom and practice. The industry could certainly do more, but I'm struggling to find evidence to support much of your complaint (and I make this response as a regular long-distance passenger with bike - which is always welcomed on-board).

Although it is not my own preferred method, I am delighted to see that more Cities are introducing a local bicycle hire system (the best known being London's aka Boris Bikes). The benefit of these local schemes is that we can complete our point to point journey by using only train and bike, and additionally, we don't even need to take the bike on the train! It couldn't be much easier!
Now I will agree that I am lucky in that the cities I use most intensively have such schemes, but I hope you will agree with me on the general principle here: the benefits of travelling by bike are largely achieved whether it is by our own bike or a local bike-hire-scheme with convenient racks/docking.

Its not 'appalling' that TOCs have the bike capacity that they have. Its a national deficit in terms of all the capacity that TOCs can offer - leisure passengers, cyclists, commuters, connecting travel to other modes and freight - we all suffer a legacy of under-provision.

But please take you quite legitimate concern to your MP, and if you can to the Transport Minister and (perhaps more effectively) to the Shadow Transport Minister. Its just the sort of issues which they'd probably be willing to pursue.

 

[142094]

As trains and bicycles are 'green' transport, I think it's appalling that bike storage on trains is so ad hoc or often non existant. The combination of the bike to the station, the train for the main part of the journey, and the bike from station to final destination is a transport ideal.

Problem is that the vast majority of stock on the network was introduced when cycling was less popular than it is today. However, one of the easiest things to do is increase provision at stations, which is happening at York and also at Leeds. Two good examples for the rest of the UK's large stations to follow.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't think anyone has really answered the question though.
If you were in that situation, what would actually happen? Would you be expected to either wait for the next train or get on that train without the bike? What if it was the last train, or you were on an advance ticket which meant you had to get that particular service?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think anyone has really answered the question though.
If you were in that situation, what would actually happen? Would you be expected to either wait for the next train or get on that train without the bike? What if it was the last train, or you were on an advance ticket which meant you had to get that particular service?

I don't think anyone is really sure,

I have witnessed someone heading to London get refused their bike on the 1003 Market Rasen - Newark service. They needed to get the 1059 Newark - London service where they had a reservation. The guard refused on safety and did give the option for the passenger to lock up their bike which the person did and boarded.

Had they not done this I don't know if they could have boarded the next train out of Newark without a reservation irrespective of the ticket type.

Luckily for the person involved it does not take long to lock up a bike at Market Rasen. By the time they got back the passengers were still trying to squeeze on.

 

[D1009]

I don't think anyone is really sure,

I have witnessed someone heading to London get refused their bike on the 1003 Market Rasen - Newark service. They needed to get the 1059 Newark - London service where they had a reservation. The guard refused on safety and did give the option for the passenger to lock up their bike which the person did and boarded.

Had they not done this I don't know if they could have boarded the next train out of Newark without a reservation irrespective of the ticket type.

Luckily for the person involved it does not take long to lock up a bike at Market Rasen. By the time they got back the passengers were still trying to squeeze on.

Given the level of service at Market Rasen, that is an appalling story, but I suppose the guard was between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Failed Unit]

Given the level of service at Market Rasen, that is an appalling story, but I suppose the guard was between a rock and a hard place.

It was, but considering back in the days of Central trains they would only send a 153 on the line and at times they had over 100 people attempting to board the unit, not surprising. It is not only bike that got left behind in the Central trains days on the 1003 - it was people as well!

However passenger counts and ticket salesshowed that a 153 was the right unit for the job (the fact the gaurd could not sell any tickets was irrelavent!)

I understand things are better in terms of train lengths under EMT - but the service is still appalling and subpressing demand.

 

[Greenback]

Problem is that the vast majority of stock on the network was introduced when cycling was less popular than it is today. However, one of the easiest things to do is increase provision at stations, which is happening at York and also at Leeds. Two good examples for the rest of the UK's large stations to follow.

There were many complaints when modern units were brought in that there was insufficient cycle capacity. Cycling may well be mor epopular today than in the 1980's, but that doesn't mean it wa snot popular then!

 

[exile]

I saw an old British Transport film recently featuring cyclists on a day trip from London going by train to the start of their trip - bikes were hung up in a luggage van. In those days you did have to pay for a bike. I can even remember people taking motor bikes with them by train!

 

[OuterDistant]

It comes to something when I can remember half a dozen BMXers loading their bikes into the guard's van of a DMU, yet if they tried that today, they'd get told to sod off.

Progress, my arse! :-x

 

[jackwilletts]

Good advice! :P

 

[GadgetMan]

It comes to something when I can remember half a dozen BMXers loading their bikes into the guard's van of a DMU, yet if they tried that today, they'd get told to sod off.

Progress, my arse! :-x

Not necessarily, if it was a quiet train and they stacked their bikes up sensibly then I would be happy to let them on and have done in the past. I'm sure many other guards would do the same. It's all down to discretion/common sense on the day depending on capacity.

 

[Bungle73]

The people doing the London to Brighton bike ride used to use the train to get home. Then the new trains were introduced, with no guard's van, and Southern decided to ban bikes on that day.

 

[142094]

The people doing the London to Brighton bike ride used to use the train to get home. Then the new trains were introduced, with no guard's van, and Southern decided to ban bikes on that day.

If I remember from a thread a while back, the fact that hundreds if not thousands of people were trying to get back with bikes was the major problem. I'm not sure if any TOC could cope with that influx on one day - perhaps a FOC with a loco and few vans attached perhaps!

 

[Drsatan]

If I remember from a thread a while back, the fact that hundreds if not thousands of people were trying to get back with bikes was the major problem. I'm not sure if any TOC could cope with that influx on one day - perhaps a FOC with a loco and few vans attached perhaps!

In an ideal world the station pilot would have attached a van to the rear of the train to provide extra bike capacity! Attaching extra coaches or vans used to be fairly common: I saw a photo taken at Winchester station in the 60s of a van carrying pigeons being attached to a 1st generation DMU.

Back on track, are there any services which require compulsory bike reservations? I recall SWT introducing them on services west of Salisbury but I'm fairly certain that policy's lapsed.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Back on track, are there any services which require compulsory bike reservations? I recall SWT introducing them on services west of Salisbury but I'm fairly certain that policy's lapsed.

Some FGW HST services certainly do. Sorry not to be more specific - but I see this mentioned on the fairly regular occasions I'm around Paddington in the evening peak.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

If we're moving on to general gripes about taking cycles on trains, one big problem I've found is taking a bike on an East Midlands Trains Meridian service.

The big problem is that the cycle space right at the end of standard class is behind a lockable door that leads through to the drivers cab. Even if you follow the rules, reserve the space and label your bike, what inevitably happens is that the train manager will walk through the train, lock the door and then vanish to the other end of the train, meaning that when you reach your destination you can't get at your bike and there's no staff to assist you!

This has happened to me several times, but apart from sit right next to the door and keep a close eye on the train manager, what can you do?

 

[Username]

I used to hate the 158s when they had the "cupboards" not sure if any of them have them now, scotrail don't anymore. The 156s can actually take 6. Most units are only 2. The 321s are is in the "p" coach behind one of the drivers cabs.

Scotrail do still have at least one 158 unit running around with the cupboard and no cycle rack. There's unit 158782 which is kitted out in the latest livery but otherwise unrefurbished on the interior.

And as far as the largest number of bikes - the record (I believe) is 47 (or 48) on a 4-car 158 service running between Perth and Inverness. This was when Etape Caledonia (a closed road race in Perthshire) was being held.

 

[krisk]

The people doing the London to Brighton bike ride used to use the train to get home. Then the new trains were introduced, with no guard's van, and Southern decided to ban bikes on that day.

Realisticly, if you took part in that would you honestly expect to be able to take your bike on a train alongside everyone else who wanted to do that?

 

[Bungle73]

Realisticly, if you took part in that would you honestly expect to be able to take your bike on a train alongside everyone else who wanted to do that?

It used to happen. And this ban only came in a few years ago iirc.

 

[jopsuk]

The numbers on the london-Brighton boike ride have increased massively in the past few years. Even if only half of those taking part want to go back to London that day, you need to be able to, in the space of a few hours, transport something like 12500 bikes.

 

[calc7]

Out of interest, can participants take their bikes on other lines in Sussex to London (if they cycle to such a station)?

 

[Failed Unit]

Out of interest, can participants take their bikes on other lines in Sussex to London (if they cycle to such a station)?

Not sure how far they will need to go, hove is also covered in the ban.

Maybe a job for the class 325 - but would people be willing to pay?

 

[jscho84233]

Back on track, are there any services which require compulsory bike reservations? I recall SWT introducing them on services west of Salisbury but I'm fairly certain that policy's lapsed.

Virgin Trains also have compulsory bike reservations. I think they can only carry 3 bikes on a pendelino. You make the reservation at a station or on the phone as you would a seat reservation, and you are issued with 2 coupons - one for you and one to attach to the bike - so the TM can tell which station the bike has to be unloaded at.

 

[brompton rail]

Virgin Trains also have compulsory bike reservations. I think they can only carry 3 bikes on a pendelino. You make the reservation at a station or on the phone as you would a seat reservation, and you are issued with 2 coupons - one for you and one to attach to the bike - so the TM can tell which station the bike has to be unloaded at.

You would be hard pressed to get on an East Coast train without a cycle reservation.

 

[cjp]

As someone who regularly takes bikes on trains. I would say there are many situations when you have to put your bike somewhere ad-hoc

If there is a dedicated location on Chiltern / or Silverlink stock I've never found it.

These inconsistencies do slightly make a mockery of the sometimes draconian attitude to cyclists elsewhere on the network.

I can understand train managers wanting to keep doors and gangways clear. Though sometimes it gets a bit excessive.

I would add though that I think there is an onus is on us cyclists to help TMs by being efficient, figure out whereabouts on the train we need to be (esp on long trains with dedicated space), and where possible to load bikes in the correct order ready for unloading efficiently.

I have only once been refused on with my bike for not having a reservation on a Virgin Pendo. to be fair Pendos are a special case as the door to the bike compartment requires opening with square key by guard / despatch person / driver, so the reservation system is used to know where to let cyclists off.

I take my bike on many trains and cycle between London Termini as it is almost always quicker than the tube.
Chiltern trains have dedicated areas usually in carriage D (if there is one) but Chiltern information usually do not know where it might be or even how many carriages the train will have). The side of carriage bears sins for disabled and for cycles.

I have in the past had my ticket endorsed when travelling on an advance when I could not board my train with my bike due to lack of cycle spaces on a Virgin Train and I had not problem it being honoured on a later train.
Also with Virgin I have have delayed my departure home by a day due to lack of reservable bike spaces.
Again with Virgin I came down from Glasgow the other month. We got into Euston about 20 minutes early at around quarter to midnight and when I wandered back down the train from first class to unload my bike I found the door locked and no crew to be found despite having all the proper reservations and labels on my bike.:-x
So the moral of my tales is Be Prepared and TOC do not like cycles - perhaps Grand Central excepted as they have a luggage area in the power unit.

It is a problem of lack of capacity for something TOC due not see as generating revenue - short sighted or illogical as they do recognise passengers have luggage and provide storage for that as a way of getting paying passengers to travel. It is the numbers

Coming back to the original poster's point surely if you are travelling with say a pram, luggage or a bike and you were not allowed to board with your pram luggage or bike and you had allowed sufficient time for all your connections then if you miss the train for which you hold the second advance would they not put you on the next train? But if that train had seats but not a cycle space then things get tricky. . .

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You would be hard pressed to get on an East Coast train without a cycle reservation.

Indeed!
Though I have frequently boarded withe bike reservation in my pocket and often have been accepted by simply replying 'yes' when asked. But I wouldn't recommend even trying it without a reservation.