Rights when travelling with a Permit to Travel

[vyp0r]

Hi,

I've a few questions regarding my rights as a passenger when using a permit to travel on First Capital Connect trains.

A little background first:
I travel daily from an unmanned station into London. The station has an automated ticket machine on the platform. However, for several months now the touchscreen has not been in full working order, with the Day Return to London (no underground) not being selectable. Due to apparent circuitry problems no matter where along the button (or away from it, for that matter) or however hard/soft you press it, another ticket type is selected.

As a result I have been buying permits to travel and paying the Day Return fare either on the train when approached by a Ticket Inspector, or on arrival at London (KGX) if the train arrives at a platform with barriers. However, this morning I was approached by a particularly unfriendly Ticket Inspector who accused me of lying about the machine not working, claiming that "it does work. I used it last week." They didn't issue me a penalty fare this time, but warned me that next time they "wouldn't be so lenient." Of course, I highly doubt that said inspector did use the machine; I would suspect rail employees have an employee's travel pass of sorts. Regardless, I just checked the machine again tonight and it is still the same as it was.



My questions:
1. What are my rights if an inspector were to challenge me about my reasoning for having bought a permit to travel? Can I refuse to hand over my details, especially if they accuse me of lying with another lie? Or must I pay and claim later?

2. Despite travelling daily don't I have every right to buy a permit to travel and pay as and when I can, rather than forking out more for a ticket I don't want? Buying a permit to travel works out cheaper for me, but that's through no fault of my own.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Mike395]

Hi Ed!

To put it simply, as a Permit to Travel machine (PERTIS) was switched on and available, it makes no difference whether a ticket machine is available - the Train Manager/RPI must offer the full range of tickets, or, if the RPI doesnt have an Avantix (portable ticket machine) on them, leave you to it so you can pay at your destination.

In answer to your question about what to do if it happens again, give them your details, but refuse to pay the Penalty Fare at the time. You will then (if the RPI has any sense!) be issued with a UPFN. This basically is a notice obliging you to pay within a certain time period, but instead write in to FCC stating what happened, enclosing the tickets (take a photocopy of them first) and they will either write it off or (unlikely) invoice you for the correct fare instead.

They would be mad to prosecute over something like this, as I reckon they are perfectly aware you are in the right!

As an aside, FCC RPIs are notorious for causing all sorts of problems - the sad thing is there sint much we can do apart from continuing to complain to FCC head office.

Mike

Edit: Please see below posts too regarding walking past an open ticket office without converting your Permit To Travel into a full ticket - didn't register that bit when originally reading the post!

 

[Mystic Force]

Just to make sure. You do always pay even if you "don't have to" ie there is no one who asks you to pay. You do ensure at the destination even when you are not asked you go to the window and ask for one. Otherwise that could land you in trouble. That is not paying because nobody asked you but there was an opportunity (at Kings Cross) do so. I wasn't sure from the way you worded it which way you meant it.

 

[MikeWh]

2. Despite travelling daily don't I have every right to buy a permit to travel and pay as and when I can, rather than forking out more for a ticket I don't want? Buying a permit to travel works out cheaper for me, but that's through no fault of my own.

I believe that you are supposed to pay as much as you can up to the value of the ticket you require but can't purchase into the permit to travel machine. If you only have 5p in coins and would choose to pay by credit card if the normal machine worked then that's fine. The other alternative is to buy a ticket part way along the route from the machine. You certainly are not expected to pay more than the price you should pay.

Also, if the other end of your journey is Kings Cross then you really ought to be able to exchange the permit to travel for the correct fare. Only if there are no staff present who can issue tickets are you allowed to get away with paying less. If you have ended up annoying a FCC RPI because they find out you were telling the truth after all, I wouldn't put it past some of them to try and get their own back in the future. If you walk past an open ticket office they'll come down on you with a ton of bricks - probably threaten to prosecute rather than issue a penalty fare.

 

[transportphoto]

Yes - although I do not regularly use stations with a PERTIS I have some knowledge and feel that I can contribute to the thread.

As a regular traveller I assume you know how much your ticket should be... there is a requirement to pay up to the value of the ticket. I find that if you have the correct fare in coinage then pay it all. Therefore there is clearly no intent to fare dodge.

However if you intend to pay by card / with a Bank note then pay as much as you can with the cash you have.

In all cases you should then exchange these permits for an actual ticket at the fist available opportunity. Be that the ticket office at Kings Cross then that be the place you exchange. If you should walk straight past that then intent can be proven. Prosecution.

 

[Greenback]

As a result I have been buying permits to travel and paying the Day Return fare either on the train when approached by a Ticket Inspector, or on arrival at London (KGX) if the train arrives at a platform with barriers.

Buying a permit to travel works out cheaper for me, but that's through no fault of my own.

Thanks,
Ed

Forgive me, but these quotes imply that you do not pay the correct fare if no one approaches you and the train pulls in to an unbarriered platform. Otherwise, how could it work out cheaper?

 

[RJ]

Hi Ed!

To put it simply, as a Permit to Travel machine (PERTIS) was switched on and available, it makes no difference whether a ticket machine is available - the Train Manager/RPI must offer the full range of tickets, or, if the RPI doesnt have an Avantix (portable ticket machine) on them, leave you to it so you can pay at your destination.

In answer to your question about what to do if it happens again, give them your details, but refuse to pay the Penalty Fare at the time. You will then (if the RPI has any sense!) be issued with a UPFN. This basically is a notice obliging you to pay within a certain time period, but instead write in to FCC stating what happened, enclosing the tickets (take a photocopy of them first) and they will either write it off or (unlikely) invoice you for the correct fare instead.

They would be mad to prosecute over something like this, as I reckon they are perfectly aware you are in the right!

As an aside, FCC RPIs are notorious for causing all sorts of problems - the sad thing is there sint much we can do apart from continuing to complain to FCC head office.

Mike

Edit: Please see below posts too regarding walking past an open ticket office without converting your Permit To Travel into a full ticket - didn't register that bit when originally reading the post!

Err how can the OP be offered a UPFN? The fact that a PERTiS was available indicates that Penalty Fares apply from that station. UPFNs and PFNs are two completely different things.

 

[yorkie]

In answer to your question about what to do if it happens again, give them your details, but refuse to pay the Penalty Fare at the time. You will then (if the RPI has any sense!) be issued with a UPFN.

A bill for a Penalty Fare that is not paid on the spot is not called a UPFN. I believe it's simply a bill for a Penalty Fare.

 

[RJ]

Forgive me, but these quotes imply that you do not pay the correct fare if no one approaches you and the train pulls in to an unbarriered platform. Otherwise, how could it work out cheaper?

People know how PTTs work, pay a 5p fare, in the unlikely chance you get caught, you can't be penalised.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A bill for a Penalty Fare that is not paid on the spot is not called a UPFN. I believe it's simply a bill for a Penalty Fare.

Indeed, it's still a Penalty Fare Notice. It's known as a Nil Paid Penalty Fare in these parts .

 

[yorkie]

2. Despite travelling daily don't I have every right to buy a permit to travel and pay as and when I can, rather than forking out more for a ticket I don't want? Buying a permit to travel works out cheaper for me, but that's through no fault of my own.

Cheaper for what journey? If you are referring to journeys to London, then do you arrive at obscure times when the ticket office is closed? Or are you always travelling to an unstaffed station with no facility to pay at your destination?

Anyway I suggest you contact FCC about the faulty machine (or have you already?) I did this once at Sandy, by using the help point and they gave me permission to travel and said the machine would be fixed shortly after. I've not been back since so don't know how quickly they fixed it.

Some FCC RPIs can be unprofessional and attempt to entrap customers, so always be careful.

 

[Mike395]

Thanks yorkie/RJ, you learn something new every day :P

 

[LexyBoy]

Wouldn't a season ticket be both cheaper and less hassle? Unless OP is travelling off peak, which I believe would be limite due to FCC's peak restrictions. Or if they're not paying for a ticket every day, which I trust they are not

As mentioned above, leaving the station without a valid ticket when you had opportunity to buy one means big trouble if you're caught, and a number of recent posts suggests that such checks are being carried out more frequently. Intent to avoid the fare if easy to prove so TOCs will in straight for prosecution.

One more thought, have you tried looking for the ticket on the machine in another way? For example, instead of using the 'home' screen, search for London- the ticket you want is likely to come up in a different place on the screen.

 

[RPI]

a Permit to travel is exactly that, it permits you to travel! provided you had the means to pay the remainder of your fare you can't be issued a PF, if you get the same RPI again give him/her your correct details and take a nil paid Penalty fare and then appeal, and when you've appealed send a complaint to FCC.

I am an RPI myself and inspectors like the one mentioned give us a bad name!

one little tip, if your getting a Pertis, put in more than 5p (somewhere near to the amount of your fare or a couple of quid at least) it will just look better and help any complaint you may make.

I know the PF rules say that you should put in as near to your fare as possible, i'm not sure whether it is enforceable.

 

[Greenback]

Wouldn't a season ticket be both cheaper and less hassle? Unless OP is travelling off peak, which I believe would be limite due to FCC's peak restrictions. Or if they're not paying for a ticket every day, which I trust they are not

I trust they are not too, yet the wording of the original post suggests that the OP finds it cheaper somehow, to use PTT's. Cheaper than what, is not stated, but it seems that they should be paying for an OP day return every time they travel, as a minimum.

I hope the OP can clarify!

 

[oversteer]

Take along a video camera one day and record the process of trying to buy your ticket ..

 

[Yew]

I trust they are not too, yet the wording of the original post suggests that the OP finds it cheaper somehow, to use PTT's. Cheaper than what, is not stated, but it seems that they should be paying for an OP day return every time they travel, as a minimum.

I hope the OP can clarify!

Maybe they get a peak train, then pay the off peak fare because they arrive at destination out of peak times? and through no fault of their own the machin/ticket office gave him an off peak ticket?

 

[island]

You're entitled to use a PERTIS machine if it's there and switched on. I agree with the advise up-thread that if you encounter troublesome RPIs you should complain about them, and certainly shouldn't pay them any more than your proper fare less the price of your permit to travel.

 

[Greenback]

Maybe they get a peak train, then pay the off peak fare because they arrive at destination out of peak times? and through no fault of their own the machin/ticket office gave him an off peak ticket?

That is a possible explanation!

 

[WillPS]

I thought PERTIS machines were removed/deactivated wherever TVMs are installed, since if there is a PERTIS machine anybody could just do the 5p trick.

 

[Mike395]

I thought PERTIS machines were removed/deactivated wherever TVMs are installed, since if there is a PERTIS machine anybody could just do the 5p trick.

If the station is a CTA or some/all train operators through the station operate a PF scheme, it makes sense to have both working so that if the TVM wont issue a particular ticket, the TOC still makes some revenue if the ticket of the individual isnt checked.

Thats my understanding of it anyway

 

[WillPS]

If the station is a CTA or some/all train operators through the station operate a PF scheme, it makes sense to have both working so that if the TVM wont issue a particular ticket, the TOC still makes some revenue if the ticket of the individual isnt checked.

Thats my understanding of it anyway

Heh, try telling EMT that. Not only did they bring in a PF scheme without any consultation (or meeting any of the other criteria the SRA set down a few years back), they'll also penalty fare anybody who can't get their notes to work in the TVM at stations with closed ticket offices.

 

[Mike395]

Heh, try telling EMT that. Not only did they bring in a PF scheme without any consultation (or meeting any of the other criteria the SRA set down a few years back), they'll also penalty fare anybody who can't get their notes to work in the TVM at stations with closed ticket offices.

Surely that means the PF scheme is invalid anyway, and anyone given a Penalty Fare notice from such a station would be sure of a successful appeal?

 

[WillPS]

Surely that means the PF scheme is invalid anyway, and anyone given a Penalty Fare notice from such a station would be sure of a successful appeal?

I'd hope so, but as with all things it's yet to be contended on these grounds in court. Stagecoach are simply bully-boys with no regard for their customers whatsoever, this scheme just goes to prove that.

 

[island]

Surely that means the PF scheme is invalid anyway, and anyone given a Penalty Fare notice from such a station would be sure of a successful appeal?

I would expect so. You're not allowed to PF someone who has the fare for their journey but just not in a format that is suitable to use the available facilities. This would include notes that the TVM doesn't like, or notes when the TVM is accepting exact change only, or a card when it doesn't accept cards. And so on.

 

[RPI]

I thought PERTIS machines were removed/deactivated wherever TVMs are installed, since if there is a PERTIS machine anybody could just do the 5p trick.

a lot of PERTIS machines were meant to be replaced with TVM's but then a lot of the TVM's were changed to card only after continued thefts so the PERTIS machines were retained.
this makes a PF scheme enforceable still as all forms of payment are acceptable.

 

[clagmonster]

a lot of PERTIS machines were meant to be replaced with TVM's but then a lot of the TVM's were changed to card only after continued thefts so the PERTIS machines were retained.
this makes a PF scheme enforceable still as all forms of payment are acceptable.

What about cheques and warrants? As no form of machine can accept a cheque, if a passenger has a chequebook (and quarantee card, which would presumably need to not be chip and pin compliant) would this count as a valid means of payment, and hence mean the PF would not be enforcable. Similarly, no machine can accept a warrant.

 

[penaltyfines]

What happens if you are paying by credit card, and have no cash - you can't obtain a permit to travel without inserting coins?

 

[island]

What about cheques and warrants? As no form of machine can accept a cheque, if a passenger has a chequebook (and quarantee card, which would presumably need to not be chip and pin compliant) would this count as a valid means of payment, and hence mean the PF would not be enforcable. Similarly, no machine can accept a warrant.

Or a rail travel voucher. Cheque book won't do after June this year, as the cheque guarantee scheme is ceasing.

What happens if you are paying by credit card, and have no cash - you can't obtain a permit to travel without inserting coins?

In both of the above situations, the customer is expected, if possible, to pay part of his/her fare using the available facilities and their available funds. If they have any coins and there is a PERTIS machine, they should buy a permit to travel. Alternatively, if they have enough funds in a format that the TVM accepts, they should buy a single ticket for part of their journey. Then on train or at the destination, the passenger buys the desired ticket, and the amount already paid is deducted from that. Change can be given if for example a passenger overpays for a permit to travel, and I think (but don't know for sure) that a permit to travel can be refunded if the passenger ultimately pays by warrant.

In the event that a customer has absolutely no funds that are being accepted by the ticketing facilities, he/she is entitled to board a train without a ticket, but needs to regularise his/her situation at the earliest opportunity.

I don't think this is all that complicated — in one sentence, buy some sort of ticket if you can't get the one you want.

 

[Greenback]

In practice of course, many TOC's do not expect the custoemr to buy a lower priced ticket and exchange it. It very much depends on where you are but that is the letter of the law and the fall back position for all TOC's.

 

[RPI]

What happens if you are paying by credit card, and have no cash - you can't obtain a permit to travel without inserting coins?

I believe that the customer is responsible for ensuring that they have cash (I think I read that on Southeastern's website), most of the area's that I work don't have PERTIS machines but TVM's so I'm not that familiar with the rules regarding them, some stations TVM's are card only so when someone gets on with cash (where there is no ticket office) they won't be PF'd but if someone offers a card as payment then they can be PF'd (not saying that's the norm but it is possible).