Riot-inducing LM farcical fares

[Techniquest]

Hi all,

Thought you lot might be interested in this little quirk I found a short time ago.

Hereford to Birmingham, as might be widely known here, was previously valid with a Saver and Y-P before 10am, this was highly useful for getting on the 0737 or 0850 from Hereford. Since September, this was changed and it's now an Anytime Return, changing the fare rules. Which is very unfair on us Y-P holders, but that's LM for you.

Anyway, I thought I'd check the fares for my sister tomorrow. She was a bit surprised to learn about the new rules (she isn't a crank at all) and would have to pay £6.30 more than she would have done 3 months ago. So since I'm on t'internet I thought I'd check the adult rate. £15.70 for a non-discounted Anytime Return, same with a Y-P.

This surprised me a bit when I looked for tickets, here is the screen-grab:

It just makes no sense...

Thoughts?

 

[clagmonster]

On a YP discounted anytime return, there is a minimum fare of £16 prior to 10:00. As the full price ticket is only £15.70, before 10:00 that is the ticket which is sold. This also applies to the anytime day.
Looking on avantix, an off peak day return is valid from 08:30 onwards, and costs £8.30.
An off peak return costs £9 and is valid from 09:00 onwards.

 

[glynn80]

Before simplification she would have been able to purchase the following

SV 8A 14.90 (A saver return valid at any time- YP fare £9.80, above the £8.00 minimum fare levied on saver fares)

After simplification in the NFM 01 it had changed to the following

SOR R 15.70 (valid at anytime but subject to the £16.00 minimum fare levied on Anytime fares so no YP discount)
SVR CS R 14.90 (out and return restricted to after 09.00, YP fare £9.80 as subject to the £8.00 minimum fare for Off-peak fares)

So as you can probably deduce is that the Saver was restricted and a more expensive Anytime introduced to replace it at Peak times. (This was reported at the time of Simplification). London Midland were the worst of the three companies renaming Saver's as Anytime's, not only increasing fares for YP holders but also for everyone else by restricting the Saver fare and thus introducing a higher fare in its place.

 

[yorkie]

Techniquest - I tipped you off personally about this increase in August and encouraged you to write to LM about it then, remember?

I also wrote an article on the subject, and (without checking) I think I mentioned the Hereford fare. I think Hereford was one of the examples used by the Telegraph (they were meant to credit this forum but didn't, so they won't be getting any more info like that) in their article that was researched by members of this forum 2 months ago.

Anyway LM have done one of 2 things (it's the same thing - view it however you want!)

They have increased the price of the Saver product renaming it Anytime but keeping the conditions the same and introduced a new, more restrictive product at the old Saver price.

or

They have heavily restricted the previously unrestricted Saver product and introduced a new product called Anytime that has the same validity as the old Saver, but at a higher price.

Either way, it's the same result. A huge fare increase.

To give them some credit, they did admit this on their website, unlike certain other companies who lied about increases and refused to admit that some passengers had higher ticket prices as a result of simplification. Not that it's any consolation when you are forced to pay a rip-off unfair fare.

<sarcasm mode>
Your fares are now...

</sarcasm mode>

:roll:

 

[mumrar]

Saver returns have been replaced by the new Off-Peak returns, the Standard Open tickets have been replaced with Anytime. The difference here is made by the restriction code for the Saver being previously on any train, however the fact that there is a restriction code, unlike on a Standard Open - now Anytime - is what makes the distinction.

The so called fare simplification stinks and sadly is made to take advantage of business travellers who are paying on account and therefore not too bothered about the fare.

Just this morning (I know this isn't LM related) I had a gent travelling from Nottingham to Reading at 07:34, returning today. Now the lazy way is to issue an Anytime return, which costs £94.00. I am not prepared to do this as I believe the customer should be able to have the cheapest valid tickets, via a bit of researching. So I ended up selling him 4 Anytime Day returns to cover his journey (Nott-L Eaton, L Eaton-Birm, Birm-Banbry, Banbry-Reading) and this worked out to a total of £48 and I can't rememebr the odd pence. It's not even close, that's half price, it's ridiculous. It would be a lot easier if we had a general rule that any journey of upto 250miles had a day return available. After all it's up to the customer if they want to stay the night or not or rush up there and back in one day.

 

[glynn80]

The so called fare simplification stinks and sadly is made to take advantage of business travellers who are paying on account and therefore not too bothered about the fare.

Just this morning (I know this isn't LM related) I had a gent travelling from Nottingham to Reading at 07:34, returning today. Now the lazy way is to issue an Anytime return, which costs £94.00. I am not prepared to do this as I believe the customer should be able to have the cheapest valid tickets, via a bit of researching. So I ended up selling him 4 Anytime Day returns to cover his journey (Nott-L Eaton, L Eaton-Birm, Birm-Banbry, Banbry-Reading) and this worked out to a total of £48 and I can't rememebr the odd pence. It's not even close, that's half price, it's ridiculous. It would be a lot easier if we had a general rule that any journey of upto 250miles had a day return available. After all it's up to the customer if they want to stay the night or not or rush up there and back in one day.

Whilst I agree with you that Simplification "stinks", it really hasn't been to take advantage of business travellers. Speaking with two of the pricing managers for the TOCs involved it seemed they were left by ATOC with a choice of true Simplification (ie. renaming a fare valid at "anytime" as an Anytime fare) or a fares increase. Northern & FGW did the latter (NXEC and others introduced meaningless restriction code to make their Savers previously valid at "anytime", Off Peak fare). Now the fares increase here are ONLY for 16-25 railcard holders, no one else is effected.

For LM however EVERYONE is effected as they all have a fares increase by being forced to purchase the new higher priced Anytime ticket at peak time. But this doesn't affect business travellers anymore than it would anyone else travelling in peak time. I don't agree with the fact they are targeting account holders either, they are given a monthly break-down of all the tickets purchased on their account and arguably gives them greater information than the normal public travelling.

I am assuming you are a ticket office clerk and unfortunately ATOC strictly forbid staff doing what you do in their Ticketing and Settlement agreement. Really ticket office staff should be free to issue the cheapest combination if they believe the passenger will benefit.

 

[paul1609]

'Fraid you wont get much sympathy from down south quoting those incredibly cheap fares! As it happens Hereford to Birmingham is almost the same distance as Littlehampton to London Victoria where an anytime day return will set you back £39.30 and a cheap day return £21.70. By my reckoning you are still getting a 60% discount for not living in the south east.

 

[mumrar]

I am actually a guard, but ATOC guidelines merely state that the customer must be sold 'the cheapest ticket available from the full range', so I interpret that these tickets are part of the full range, and as such it's OK.

My only gripe doing this is that it takes up so much of my time rather than selecting one ticket and issuing it. I have to use my knowledge (and it's not great on some parts of the network) to figure out where ti try splitting the fares up.

I am also reminded of a daft fare that I sold for a gentleman travelling from Narborough to Fratton. An anytime single is £82.00 and it is routed via London, despite the fact that Narborough-Nuneaton-Coventry-Southampton-Fratton would be quicker. So as it is routed via London, that would make this journey invalid! Now, the next stop down is Hinckley. From Hinckley to Fratton the ticket is routed NOT LONDON and costs £57.50.

All this just makes it hard to justify certain things to customers when selling tickets.

There are countless examples, and I shall leave you with one that may no longer be the case (I went to XC not London Midland). I left Liverpool at 08:?? and found a chap with a Liverpool to Leamington Saver return. I checked and this wasn't valid until 09:00. So I explained and charged him the excess fare for a standard open. Further down the train I come across a Saver return from Liverpool to Banbury. On checking, this was valid. So nice as I am I went back to the Leamington customer, non-issued the excess ticket and just made his Saver an over-distance excess to Banbury as it was cheaper.

 

[yorkie]

Saver returns have been replaced by the new Off-Peak returns, the Standard Open tickets have been replaced with Anytime. The difference here is made by the restriction code for the Saver being previously on any train, however the fact that there is a restriction code, unlike on a Standard Open - now Anytime - is what makes the distinction.

Not true - see what I wrote above for what happened for many LM fares including the one in question. There was no SOR!

The so called fare simplification stinks and sadly is made to take advantage of business travellers who are paying on account and therefore not too bothered about the fare.

True - it stinks.

Just this morning (I know this isn't LM related) I had a gent travelling from Nottingham to Reading at 07:34, returning today. Now the lazy way is to issue an Anytime return, which costs £94.00. I am not prepared to do this as I believe the customer should be able to have the cheapest valid tickets, via a bit of researching. So I ended up selling him 4 Anytime Day returns to cover his journey (Nott-L Eaton, L Eaton-Birm, Birm-Banbry, Banbry-Reading) and this worked out to a total of £48 and I can't rememebr the odd pence. It's not even close, that's half price, it's ridiculous. It would be a lot easier if we had a general rule that any journey of upto 250miles had a day return available. After all it's up to the customer if they want to stay the night or not or rush up there and back in one day.

If anyone from ATOC or your employers is reading this then you could be in trouble There were reports of FCC disciplining staff for splitting fares at places like Potters Bar. But, fair play for risking your job to help people out - that takes guts!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Further down the train I come across a Saver return from Liverpool to Banbury. On checking, this was valid. So nice as I am I went back to the Leamington customer, non-issued the excess ticket and just made his Saver an over-distance excess to Banbury as it was cheaper.

Now that's what I call service!

 

[Techniquest]

I do remember you suggested I complained, but I never got it done.

Anyway, what I found weird and got me doing a screen-grab was that £15.70 fare was valid until the 0950 but NOT on the 1050!

mumrar: Didn't know an over-distance excess was possible. If a passenger should request this, how would one do so?

 

[me123]

If anyone from ATOC or your employers is reading this then you could be in trouble There were reports of FCC disciplining staff for splitting fares at places like Potters Bar. But, fair play for risking your job to help people out - that takes guts!

I agree. It's farcical that this is not allowed.

 

[glynn80]

I am actually a guard, but ATOC guidelines merely state that the customer must be sold 'the cheapest ticket available from the full range', so I interpret that these tickets are part of the full range, and as such it's OK.

I'm afraid to say you are greatly misinformed. ATOC do not leave it as you state as "the customer must be sold 'the cheapest ticket available from the full range"

The ATOC retailing standards (the authoritive source of information on this) states:


B.4.3 Offering / Selling a Customer a Fare or a Combination of Fares for their Journey
• When a customer requests a journey for which a through fare is available, the Retailer should always offer / sell that through fare to the customer. The Retailer should not suggest that the customer buys a combination of fares.

• When a customer requests a specific combination of fares for a journey for which a through fare is also available, the Retailer, at an impartial point of sale, should sell this combination (provided the Retailer would normally be allowed to sell those fares separately) and between them, they are valid for the whole journey requested. The Retailer must make a reasonable attempt to ensure that the combined fares meet the customer’s requirements (TSA clause 6-31). The Retailer must specifically refer the customer to the limitations on the use of combinations of tickets shown in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (clause 19).

• When a customer requests a journey for which a through fare is not available in the Fares database, the Fare Manuals or Ticket Machines provided at an impartial point of sale, the Retailer should offer / sell a combination of two or more point to point fares (provided the Retailer would normally be allowed to sell those fares separately) which, between them, are valid for the whole journey. For example, a customer may wish to “double back” via London to take advantage of a faster journey opportunity. Without a “via London” fare, two separate tickets would be required. The Retailer must make a reasonable attempt to ensure that the combined fares meet the customer’s requirements (TSA clause 6-31). The Retailer must specifically refer the customer to clause 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.


So basically this forbids you selling a combination of fares unless specifically asked for, you must then once asked make a reasonable attempt to ensure this combination is valid.

I am also reminded of a daft fare that I sold for a gentleman travelling from Narborough to Fratton. An anytime single is £82.00 and it is routed via London, despite the fact that Narborough-Nuneaton-Coventry-Southampton-Fratton would be quicker. So as it is routed via London, that would make this journey invalid! Now, the next stop down is Hinckley. From Hinckley to Fratton the ticket is routed NOT LONDON and costs £57.50.

All this just makes it hard to justify certain things to customers when selling tickets.

Infact again your information leaves alot to be desired, whether or not the ticket is valid via London or not bears no relevance on whether the ticket MUST be used via London. E.g. London to Manchester Stns: RTE Chesterfield, this ticket was more expensive than the London to MAnchester: RTE Any Permitted and thus the customer is free to choose either route. The via London fare is basically informing you that you may travel via London (usually when there is also a NOT London as well) it does not force you to travel via London if there are alternative Any Permitted routes valid that do not go through London. All this is contained in the routeing guide and you should probably have a good read of that to gain full knowledge to give to your customers.

 

[paul1609]

What journeys have a rte "London"? my experience is that tickets from the south are either "not London" a specified routing point e.g "Salisbury" or "Any permitted+"

 

[John @ home]

What journeys have a rte "London"? my experience is that tickets from the south are either "not London" a specified routing point e.g "Salisbury" or "Any permitted+"

Narborough to Fratton (and Fratton to Narborough) have route "+ London" as the only available walk-on fare. The other routes are AP EMT & Connections and XC & Connections.

John

 

[Techniquest]

What journeys have a rte "London"? my experience is that tickets from the south are either "not London" a specified routing point e.g "Salisbury" or "Any permitted+"

Hereford to Brighton has a "Route Evesham and London" option. Hereford to Bognor Regis has the Route Evesham option.

 

[mumrar]

A lot of this proves that I do not bury myself in great depth to the wealth of rules, regs and conditions that apply to all aspects of ticketing.

It was stated that divided fares can only be issued when requested by the customer. My first question when presented with an open period return is if the customer plans to return the same day. If they answer that they are, then I inform them that it may be cheaper to split the fares down, but explain that it will restrict them to one route (i.e can't go BHM-NOT via Leicester). It is at this point that the customer then requests me to sell them the split fares for their journey.

Whilst I stand corrceted by glynn80, I never did think that I had ultimate knowledge on all aspects of all of this, and as it is proved it requires storage capacity much beyond my memory.

All I'm trying to do is give the customers a fair (fare??) deal, whilst ensuring they have a valid ticket and the TOC is also treated fairly. After all am I not a ticket agent caught between the two, and able to have both interests at heart.

mumrar: Didn't know an over-distance excess was possible. If a passenger should request this, how would one do so?

Techniquest, the customer can have the flexibilty to change their minds. You can extend a single or return ticket to another destination, but you have to take account of being able to legitimately pass through the original destination. There is more to it than that, but I thing glynn80 can help you with the details. Glynn don't take this as me being sarcastic, I don't want to be wrong again and you present things properly and logically.

 

[Techniquest]

OK, thanks. Never knew that before so I'll keep an eye out for replies.

But in any case, no-one can ever claim total knowledge of the system. It's too complicated!

Your example there though says BHM - NOT not allowed via Leicester. When I was looking up fares recently, I was often routed via Leicester. Same ticket (BHM - NOT OPDR) for via Leicester or Derby. Not looked for a week now but I was glad to see that much!

 

[mumrar]

I meant Nottingham to Birmingham splitting the fares at Long Eaton, saving you £7 is not valid via Leicester. I should be better at explaining, sorry

 

[glynn80]

Oh please don't take my corrections as me having a "go" at yourself for a comendable act. If all guards were willing to do what you do it would be a much better on-train expierence, I was just presenting the correct facts so people are correctly informed on exactly what ATOC do and don't allow (regardless of who ridiculous it may be).

 

[Techniquest]

I meant Nottingham to Birmingham splitting the fares at Long Eaton, saving you £7 is not valid via Leicester. I should be better at explaining, sorry

Ah, I've got you now. Didn't realise there was so much difference!

 

[sven945]

There are really stupid fares up in Yorkshire on the Northern route from Leeds to Selby. If I buy a ticket from Leeds (it may actually be from Harrogate via Leeds, but the point still stands) to Micklefield it costs me £5.20 and one to South Milford (the next station along) is £7.20. But a ticket from Micklefield to South Milford is only £1, so buying separate tickets saves £1 on that short journey!

 

[yorkie]

There are really stupid fares up in Yorkshire on the Northern route from Leeds to Selby. If I buy a ticket from Leeds (it may actually be from Harrogate via Leeds, but the point still stands) to Micklefield it costs me £5.20 and one to South Milford (the next station along) is £7.20. But a ticket from Micklefield to South Milford is only £1, so buying separate tickets saves £1 on that short journey!

Probably best to discuss this on a separate topic. There are crazy fares all over the UK, and splitting tickets can be cheaper. By the way, York to South Milford is a cheap way of getting to Leeds from York (particularly if you only want a single or travel at peak time) as double-backing is permitted between Micklefield and Leeds on tickets beyond Micklefield as you do not have to change trains at Micklefield - changing at Leeds is valid.

But back to the original topic, has the OP contacted LM about these high fares? I did encourage you to do this back in August when I first uncovered them!

 

[Techniquest]

Not got onto it, I keep finding something else to do. Today I was pouring over the new TTs and finding random stuff in them I want to do. Tomorrow, maybe I'll get a rant on to LM.