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Riots in Birmingham/London/Manchester etc

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BestWestern

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A video I saw of the riot in full swing showed the vehicle ablaze, and the outline of it's front end certainly looked like an ALX400, so one of the Arriva DAF's could well be right.

I wonder how long our Government intends to remain impotent on this issue before the need becomes clear to stamp out this vile behaviour. When there is a regular friday night riot most weeks, perhaps? I'm grateful that I don't live in London, but I do wonder how long it will take for this festering mentality that an orgy of violence is perfectly OK to spread to more of our towns and cities. Only in Britain could there be a debate in Parliament, in the midst of our worst rioting for decades, in which the minister responsible decrees that even the use of water canon, a staple tool in riot situations, might not be 'appropriate' for this (soft) country :roll:
 

exile

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As so often, a genuine protest is hijacked by "rentamob".
 

BestWestern

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I find it genuinely unsettling that there is an element within our country - and mostly of student age or just above, a generation who truthfully have little to complain about in life - who have a festering mentality that they can pitch up in London or wherever and go on a violent rampage whenever the mood takes them, often wrecking the legitimate protests of others, do whatever the hell they like to our cities, and get away with it.

What the hell are the authorities doing??!

When even our own Royal family can come under a physical attack it really does pose some pretty deep and searching questions about what is going wrong with law and enforcement on our watch. Most of the businesses who occupy the premises we see being smashed, torched and looted are in no way responsible for the supposed crimes against ethics that these idiotic specimens purport to be so deeply offended by.

How many more senseless trashing sessions must we have to watch on the news before somebody in Westminster grows a pair and finally does something with these morons?!

Rant over!
 
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Jonny

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Actually Bestewstern, there is a lot of anger in the younger generation;
BestWestern said:
a generation who truthfully have little to complain about in life
is an opinion presented as a fact. If you end up on the dole, and finding that it pays naff-all while expecting people to go way out of their way for some rubbish, crap, poorly paid, temporary job (that results in paying someone else's mortgage through overpriced rent); often with a long and uncomfortable trip on a bus, driven roughly by an often overpaid, over-unionised bus driver. The writing is on the wall in all sorts of ways and places and I'm not surprised that what happened to Charles and Camilla happened. I don't condone it but while I would normally inform on someone I might not have done and I would NEVER risk my life in some jolly in the Queen's name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
See also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPhlP6AfptY
 

BestWestern

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Actually Bestewstern, there is a lot of anger in the younger generation; is an opinion presented as a fact. If you end up on the dole, and finding that it pays naff-all while expecting people to go way out of their way for some rubbish, crap, poorly paid, temporary job (that results in paying someone else's mortgage through overpriced rent); often with a long and uncomfortable trip on a bus, driven roughly by an often overpaid, over-unionised bus driver. The writing is on the wall in all sorts of ways and places and I'm not surprised that what happened to Charles and Camilla happened. I don't condone it but while I would normally inform on someone I might not have done and I would NEVER risk my life in some jolly in the Queen's name.

You will struggle to find any bus driver who is overpaid, that really is 'opinion presented as fact'. Curious how you have issues with Unions too, but then I suppose any form of organised democracy is a threat to mob rule.

Whatever anger may or may not exist, rampaging through the streets setting fire to things and looting shops is fairly unlikely to solve a great many issues, as you are well aware. I am of the 'younger generation' myself, so please don't make the mistake of assuming that anybody who justifiably feels many of these people don't deserve their place in society is too old to understand the world. And no, I am neither 'silver spoon in mouth' stock, nor university educated, nor anything other than an ordinary lad from an ordinary town, who got a job when he left school and worked his way in the world, managing all that time without any need to go looting or setting fire to to other people's livelihoods.

The sad fact is that it's our University culture in this country which is responsible for a number of the problems we have, including producing a generation of 'educated' people who all feel that the world owes them a highly paid job because they got a place at Uni, totally failing to appreciate the obvious reality that the whole Uni industry is a racket, designed to line the pockets of Tutors and Principals and provide some rosy statistics for the Government, whilst producing little in the way of universal benefit. Odd how all those thousands of poor, starving students fail to spot it despite their enormous intelligence. Judging by the general age profile of our new generation of 'protesting' youth, it appears entirely possible that Uni might also be a breeding ground for the sort of noxious mentality which leads people to believe there is a struggle to be had with the establishment in order to create a better world. There isn't, it's crap. Just an excuse to go and do some damage.
 

Aictos

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Bus drivers certainly ain't overpaid, was talking to one of the drivers one day and considering they're driving the bus and taking fares etc...were at the time paid less then I was.

I don't know if that's now changed but I doubt it, the real money is in driving coaches much like the real money for train drivers is in driving High Speed trains.

As to the riots, the UK still produces Water Cannons for other countries and they're safer then a combination of firearms, tear gas, and batons so why not use them?

In Germany, the German communities use their water cannon in hot summers to water public parks which is a good idea.
 

Greenback

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Actually Bestewstern, there is a lot of anger in the younger generation; is an opinion presented as a fact. If you end up on the dole, and finding that it pays naff-all while expecting people to go way out of their way for some rubbish, crap, poorly paid, temporary job (that results in paying someone else's mortgage through overpriced rent); often with a long and uncomfortable trip on a bus, driven roughly by an often overpaid, over-unionised bus driver. The writing is on the wall in all sorts of ways and places and I'm not surprised that what happened to Charles and Camilla happened. I don't condone it but while I would normally inform on someone I might not have done and I would NEVER risk my life in some jolly in the Queen's name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
See also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPhlP6AfptY

How ironic. You are against low paid crap rubbish jobs but think bus drivers are overpaid?

Is this a wind up?
 

WestCoast

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Whatever anger may or may not exist, rampaging through the streets setting fire to things and looting shops is fairly unlikely to solve a great many issues, as you are well aware. I am of the 'younger generation' myself, so please don't make the mistake of assuming that anybody who justifiably feels many of these people don't deserve their place in society is too old to understand the world. And no, I am neither 'silver spoon in mouth' stock, nor university educated, nor anything other than an ordinary lad from an ordinary town, who got a job when he left school and worked his way in the world, managing all that time without any need to go looting or setting fire to to other people's livelihoods.

The sad fact is that it's our University culture in this country which is responsible for a number of the problems we have, including producing a generation of 'educated' people who all feel that the world owes them a highly paid job because they got a place at Uni, totally failing to appreciate the obvious reality that the whole Uni industry is a racket, designed to line the pockets of Tutors and Principals and provide some rosy statistics for the Government, whilst producing little in the way of universal benefit. Odd how all those thousands of poor, starving students fail to spot it despite their enormous intelligence. Judging by the general age profile of our new generation of 'protesting' youth, it appears entirely possible that Uni might also be a breeding ground for the sort of noxious mentality which leads people to believe there is a struggle to be had with the establishment in order to create a better world. There isn't, it's crap. Just an excuse to go and do some damage.

That's fine as your opinion, but don't tar every student with the same brush here. That would be completely unfair, since it is still a minority who do these things. It's like the old "all rail staff are rude" nonsense.

Employers are also "in bed" with Tutors and Principals in your argument, since they are also supporting the system.

The current riots don't seem to be student related either, far from it actually.
 
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2Dogbox

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Actually Bestewstern, there is a lot of anger in the younger generation; is an opinion presented as a fact. If you end up on the dole, and finding that it pays naff-all while expecting people to go way out of their way for some rubbish, crap, poorly paid, temporary job (that results in paying someone else's mortgage through overpriced rent); often with a long and uncomfortable trip on a bus, driven roughly by an often overpaid, over-unionised bus driver. The writing is on the wall in all sorts of ways and places and I'm not surprised that what happened to Charles and Camilla happened. I don't condone it but while I would normally inform on someone I might not have done and I would NEVER risk my life in some jolly in the Queen's name.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
See also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPhlP6AfptY

Bus drivers overpaid?? I've heard it all now! You will find most bus drivers are just above minimum wage, work split shifts and do a very demanding job. .. Are we on the same planet here???
 

Jonny

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Bus drivers overpaid?? I've heard it all now! You will find most bus drivers are just above minimum wage, work split shifts and do a very demanding job. .. Are we on the same planet here???

Well some are, not always the case though. I've heard of some bus drivers who do earn more (pro rata at least) than their passengers (or most of them anyways). Besides, a lot of the anger among younger people today is about a twofold problem - a lack of opportunities and the fact that as for housing etc. money doesn't go as far as it used to. The potential for pent-up anger is obvious; throw in a shooting that the local community can't understand and then have the police lose control of the situation is a cue for disorder right across the crapital oops I meant capital. Although it isn't students on this occasion (the "criminal fraternity", I think,on this occasion) the anger is there and it is understandable, especially since University is meant to teach you to think for yourself...

To try to rationalise the forces driving this disorder away is like saying to someone who has lost a relative to get over it... nowhere near enough... in many cases the anger is being driven by grief at what could have been, seemed realistic...
 

Greenback

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Since buses largely carry around the less affluent in society, it's hardly surprising if they earn more than most of the passengers. That does not make them overpaid.

I am also a bit confused about what you are saying re the rioting. Firstly you say it is the criminal fraternity, then you say it is relatives being driven by grief. Are the relatives also all members of the criminal fraternity, and if so do you have proof?

Frankly, I can understand there being anger amongst young people. The prospects for the future for all of us are about as bleak as they have ever been, and the younger generation are generally feeling the brunt more. I can see why the young blame the older generations for that as well. But I fail to see how setting fire to buses is going to bring about any change. Or looting shops.
 

anthony263

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I do agree that there are a lot of youngers who are finishing school/university etc expect to just be able to get a job. Its not, i have a lot of very good qualifications yet i am struggling.

Now back driving buses again and i can certainly say that i am not overpaid, too be honest i wish i had higher wages but i will take what i can get.

I do think this whole problem with jobs is likely to get worse now that people are retiring later and companies can no longer force staff into early retirement.

As for these clowns rioting, i thnk it is just an excuse and they cant be too bright considering thaey were psoing in front of tv camera's and some of theme were not kids at all but rather people in their late 30's or older. i do sometimes think the police can be too heavy handed however watching those riots i think at that time they should have been more heavy handed, even shooting rubber bullets at the rioters/looters etc would have been a good thing.

Its the same with the riots in Bristol over a bloody tesco store , thses yobs just want an excuse
 

ainsworth74

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I do agree that there are a lot of youngers who are finishing school/university etc expect to just be able to get a job. Its not, i have a lot of very good qualifications yet i am struggling.

Not sure I agree with you there, in my circle of friends (most of whom are in Uni) the main gist of any conversation about life after Uni is that all of us are either going to end up flipping burgers for a while or end up on the dole. Even outside of my friends I've not met one student whose thinks they're going to walk out of the doors and get a decent paying job (or a job full stop!).
 

Greenback

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I think it's the fact that it's extremely difficult to find a job flipping burgers that makes them angry! I think that people who have not yet left Uni may underestimate how difficult things are.

I think it's a reasonable expectation for a graduate to expect to be able to find soem sort of job within a few months. After all, most will have been taken in by the popular idea that higher education improves employment prospects!
 

cainebj

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Not sure I agree with you there, in my circle of friends (most of whom are in Uni) the main gist of any conversation about life after Uni is that all of us are either going to end up flipping burgers for a while or end up on the dole. Even outside of my friends I've not met one student whose thinks they're going to walk out of the doors and get a decent paying job (or a job full stop!).

Even McDonalds (and the rest of them) is difficult to gain employment in after uni, they'd rather take on sixth form students who are 16 or 17 years old, cuts down on their wages. And even then, you have to have at least 5 GCSE's A*-C, and MUST have at least a C in Maths and English, just to flip over a burger on a grill!

Back to the topic, it is getting out of hand these days with the way things are. It's just unfortunate that those in power couldn't give a sh*t what happens to the welfare of the people they're there to represent. I'm sure if they had their way, most young adults would be sleeping in alleyways under some sheets of newspaper, then charge you for the privilege of having a newspaper to sleep under in the alleyway, then probably charge you even more for having some space to sleep.
As was previously mentioned by another member, it is mainly anger in the younger generation. Anger that the opportunities aren't there, the anger that job centre staff treat them like a piece of dog poo stuck to the bottom of their shoe when they're claiming jobseekers allowance due to the lack of opportunities, anger that society always looks down on them, anger that they're always pushed aside. If causing riots will give them some hope of being heard, or even just to prove that they do exist, then they will do it.
A lot of people in this "group" around the country are just as talented as some people in overpaid employment, who got the job simply because "Daddy knows the boss".
 

Nym

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OK... Now a word from some of the youth...

I have been on JSA three times in the last six months and can safely say that most of the staff are utter well, I can't use the word on this forum.

Let me point out though, that job opportunities do exist, but people can't be bothered looking for them, applying for them, and get de-moralised when they don't get the jobs.

I have just started an 'as required' contract with a large entertainments company, they only employed 5% of their applicants. I can see how youths get stuck in the endless loop of unemployment and the 'pepole' at the Job Centre don't do anything to help you find work.

Another massive problem nowadays is that the semi and unskilled forces that take on green staff, retail, customer service etc. don't take on full time staff, employing more part time staff is cheaper in Employer's national insurance contributions and other insurance and tax issues. So many jobs simply mean you'll be on less money than you would on JSA and H&CT Benifit.

The main, main problem with the current system though is that benifits don't start properly until you reach the age of 25.

If I was 25 or over, I'd be able to receive about £240/month in benifits in addition to my wage because of my working pattern. I would also be able to recive part housing and council tax benifit. But as I'm under 25, I can only apply for LHA (Local Housing Allowance) the cost of a bedsit/roomshare. And can't claim income support, tax credits, working tax credits, or any other benifits.

Now I'm quite peeved off about this, especially since people who have nothing better to do than continuously drop sprogs get their mitts on the masses of tax I pay. And before I decend into wanting to join some of the rioters I'll stop.

Either way, there are jobs there, but the chances of these pepole getting them for a combination or reasons (not least that it's cheaper to employ 3 p/t staff than 1 f/t staff, and reduces risk) so that no-one wants full time staff any more. Not to also mention that younger pepole pay higher insurance costs for everything, and get no form of discounted travel or utilities to counter this.
 

Greenback

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You raise some good points Nym. Though I don't think it's fair to blame the Job Centre staff for the lack of job opportunities.

Employing part time staff is cheaper. That is something that needs to be addressed. The benefits for under 25's also need to be looked at. Sadly, I don;t think it will, due to the lack of money available.
 

SS4

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OK... Now a word from some of the youth...

I have been on JSA three times in the last six months and can safely say that most of the staff are utter well, I can't use the word on this forum.

Let me point out though, that job opportunities do exist, but people can't be bothered looking for them, applying for them, and get de-moralised when they don't get the jobs.

I have just started an 'as required' contract with a large entertainments company, they only employed 5% of their applicants. I can see how youths get stuck in the endless loop of unemployment and the 'pepole' at the Job Centre don't do anything to help you find work.

Another massive problem nowadays is that the semi and unskilled forces that take on green staff, retail, customer service etc. don't take on full time staff, employing more part time staff is cheaper in Employer's national insurance contributions and other insurance and tax issues. So many jobs simply mean you'll be on less money than you would on JSA and H&CT Benifit.

The main, main problem with the current system though is that benifits don't start properly until you reach the age of 25.

If I was 25 or over, I'd be able to receive about £240/month in benifits in addition to my wage because of my working pattern. I would also be able to recive part housing and council tax benifit. But as I'm under 25, I can only apply for LHA (Local Housing Allowance) the cost of a bedsit/roomshare. And can't claim income support, tax credits, working tax credits, or any other benifits.

Now I'm quite peeved off about this, especially since people who have nothing better to do than continuously drop sprogs get their mitts on the masses of tax I pay. And before I decend into wanting to join some of the rioters I'll stop.

Either way, there are jobs there, but the chances of these pepole getting them for a combination or reasons (not least that it's cheaper to employ 3 p/t staff than 1 f/t staff, and reduces risk) so that no-one wants full time staff any more. Not to also mention that younger pepole pay higher insurance costs for everything, and get no form of discounted travel or utilities to counter this.

You can add mandatory work placements to that. Why should employers actually pay staff when they can get them for free on 8 week placements from the job centre? For those who are sent, they do not volunteer as the people would have you believe, they work about 30 hours per week for their benefit money plus a small premium for travel - this accounts to roughly (£53 + £15)/30 = £2.27 per hour of which travel has to come out of it - even a half price bus ticket in the West Midlands is about £8. Would anyone here do their best, if any, work for that much money (for reference the minimum wage is currently £5.93 per hour)?

The Job Centre staff are usually pretty good given that government want to cut their numbers drastically, PCS are portrayed as spoilt brats who'll strike over anything, they're contractually unable to say anything bad about the government in a professional capacity and their methods are decided top down without any liaison with staff. On top of all that Universal Benefit is going to make far more red tape, forget what Cameron, Osbourne and Duncan-Smith think - do you really think you can put people who are too sick to work in the same category as those looking for work and also those who need part time work or are carers?


That's not to say that rioting is right but when you consider that the media considers them criminals and the government treats them as scum is it any wonder young people are taking to the streets?

Also, has anyone noticed that it's mightily convenient that government are blaming people they don't like - the student protesters, the trade unions and now the poor when all passed off with very little trouble apart from the rent a mob who'd don any "reason" to break the law.
 

Oswyntail

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It's all very well linking the riots with poverty and joblessness. But wasn't the first flashpoint a reaction to the police trying to clamp down on illegal firearms? Is it possible that the "angry" rioters are being egged on by those gangsters who resent the authorities trying to impose the rule of law?
 

starrymarkb

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Just a heads up that things a kicking off in the shopping centre over New Street station...
 

Max

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BBC News reporting shops smashed and looting near to Birmingham New Street (Palisades and the Bull Ring).
 

SS4

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BBC News reporting shops smashed and looting near to Birmingham New Street (Palisades and the Bull Ring).

Glad I stayed at home today. It's rather unusual for the city centre to be involved
 
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