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Riots in Birmingham/London/Manchester etc

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ChrisCooper

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I imagine Croyden Trams are going to have some difficulties tomorrow. That big fire is right next to the tram lines and is that hot that the dirt in the rails is on fire (looks like the rails are on fire other than the fact steel doesn't burn), and the overhead must be totally ruined.
 
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Dennis

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All this is generating some nice publicity material for the BNP to use in the future....
 

SS4

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The most depressing thing about this is that the politicians will still not achknowledge what the root cause of all of this is about.

Pray tell us. Bear in mind I will be getting out my [citation needed] sign where necessary
 

Hydro

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I do wonder what the negative impact would be if they all were shot. I'm struggling.


On a serious note, I can't seem to find much in the way of the Police doing much else other than standing blocking roads. The root cause seems to be, and this is something that London officials can't seem to just come out and say, that a lot of people in their communities are utter dickheads.
 

SS4

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Watching Newsnight and very disappointed. I wish I could go there and slam a map down and show them that there is a country outside of London.

Also hope this will ensure that police numbers are maintained
 

MidnightFlyer

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I can't believe that Ken Livingstone is using the riots to big up his election campaign.
 

SS4

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I do wonder what the negative impact would be if they all were shot. I'm struggling.


On a serious note, I can't seem to find much in the way of the Police doing much else other than standing blocking roads. The root cause seems to be, and this is something that London officials can't seem to just come out and say, that a lot of people in their communities are utter dickheads.

I suspect the police are blocking roads to contain it. I suspect many of them agree with the rioters...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can't believe that Ken Livingstone is using the riots to big up his election campaign.

Really? I can believe it quite easily. It's despicable
 

Hydro

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If that's the case containing the trouble is only half the job, once it's contained it has to be stopped otherwise it's not solving anything. To quote an old military term, find, fix and finish. Find out where the trouble is, fix it in one place, then destroy it to remove it from the equation.

As for Ken Livingstone, I too can easily believe it.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Re: Newsnight. In that last film, who was shot to spark the Tottenham riots? Also, who was the one saying that in the 30s his dad just got on with it?
 

Hydro

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A guy called Mark Duggan was shot by Police in a planned operation (the operation was planned, not the shooting), Duggan was carrying a gun and was shot twice. Details as to why are unclear, but a policeman escaped with a bullet lodged in his radio.
 

Pumbaa

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I've just come back home, having been caught up in trouble on my way home in Croydon and Eltham.

Terrible times, and a terrible situation. These riots aren't the problem, they are merely a symptom. And for those of you damning them, a fair proportion are looting for the hell of it, but there is a real and palpable sense of despair and anger underlying all of this.

Blame and vilify them, but they have been pushed to this situation via years (going back to Brixton and Toxteth times) of neglect. The police are as much to blame; they have not acted to control it here from the start, and they are responsible for the poor social relations to begin with.

The last thing we need is the army on the streets. We don't want literal bloodshed.
 

Hydro

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Any social aspect of the original rioting has been well and truly eclipsed by the subsequent looting and robbery, which seems to have gained rather an organised bent.
 

4SRKT

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All this chat about shooting people or sending them somewhere else (where? Who'd have them?) is just nonsense. Like it or not these people are a product of British society, so that society is ultimately to blame for what is happening, and needs to confront it robustly, but also in a way that attempts to understand the underlying problems. Especially in London where an ex-council flat in a less pleasant area can cost a quarter of a million, you ae effectively saying to hundreds of thousands, or even millions, or people, that they are not welcome. Society over the last generation has bred an utterly dysfunctional underclass, living an entirely anomic existence in parallel with 'mainstream' society. That is the responsibility of society and especially those who have endorsed the policies that have led to massive numbers of people being on the scrap heap, poverty line or whatever. It's pointless saying they're better off than people in Africa or wherever because they don't live in Africa and theor standards of comparison are with the rest of Western Society. And before anyone starts trotting out nonsense about 'woolly liberalism' or whatever being to blame, this country operates within entirely amoral economic strictures, and has become progressively more right wing throughout my adult life. This corrosion of society has happened on the long watch of the right wing (in which I include NuLab BTW).

This doesn't condone rioting, but it has to be seen in the context of the incredibly divided city that London has become. It is pointless expecting people to respect society who have no concept of the society that most of us like at least some part of, because that society does little or nothing for the underclass.
 

strange6

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A guy called Mark Duggan was shot by Police in a planned operation (the operation was planned, not the shooting), Duggan was carrying a gun and was shot twice. Details as to why are unclear, but a policeman escaped with a bullet lodged in his radio.

They don't protest when poor little kids who get in the way of gang violence get killed do they? All the world will be looking at this and come to realise how broken this country really is.
 

MidnightFlyer

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A guy called Mark Duggan was shot by Police in a planned operation (the operation was planned, not the shooting), Duggan was carrying a gun and was shot twice. Details as to why are unclear, but a policeman escaped with a bullet lodged in his radio.

I meant the 80s riots, sorry. Was a black woman shot in a raid or something...

 

Hydro

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All this chat about shooting people or sending them somewhere else (where? Who'd have them?) is just nonsense. Like it or not these people are a product of British society, so that society is ultimately to blame for what is happening, and needs to confront it robustly, but also in a way that attempts to understand the underlying problems. Especially in London where an ex-council flat in a less pleasant area can cost a quarter of a million, you ae effectively saying to hundreds of thousands, or even millions, or people, that they are not welcome. Society over the last generation has bred an utterly dysfunctional underclass, living an entirely anomic existence in parallel with 'mainstream' society. That is the responsibility of society and especially those who have endorsed the policies that have led to massive numbers of people being on the scrap heap, poverty line or whatever. It's pointless saying they're better off than people in Africa or wherever because they don't live in Africa and theor standards of comparison are with the rest of Western Society. And before anyone starts trotting out nonsense about 'woolly liberalism' or whatever being to blame, this country operates within entirely amoral economic strictures, and has become progressively more right wing throughout my adult life. This corrosion of society has happened on the long watch of the right wing (in which I include NuLab BTW).

This doesn't condone rioting, but it has to be seen in the context of the incredibly divided city that London has become. It is pointless expecting people to respect society who have no concept of the society that most of us like at least some part of, because that society does little or nothing for the underclass.

This may very well ring true on many points, but the characteristics of the trouble in London at the moment seems to be taking on a jolly boys outing slant rather than social fury being vented. The BBC are receiving more and more eyewitness reports of laughing looters, organised groups using radios and gangs of people turning up in cars, and even an atmosphere of enjoyment.

As I said, any anger that one community may have had, however well founded, seems to have transformed into an excuse to do what you please and hang the consequences, and damn the people who own the shops, who live in the houses; people who are the same products of the same community.
 

Metroland

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Like it or not these people are a product of British society, so that society is ultimately to blame for what is happening, and needs to confront it robustly, but also in a way that attempts to understand the underlying problems. Especially in London where an ex-council flat in a less pleasant area can cost a quarter of a million, you ae effectively saying to hundreds of thousands, or even millions, or people, that they are not welcome. Society over the last generation has bred an utterly dysfunctional underclass, living an entirely anomic existence in parallel with 'mainstream' society. That is the responsibility of society and especially those who have endorsed the policies that have led to massive numbers of people being on the scrap heap, poverty line or whatever.

I actually tend to agree a lot of young people feel really ****ed off. It's not just the 'underclass', it's people with A levels and graduates, who cannot get decent jobs, and millions of others that have been ruled out of decent housing, while the older generation have done very nicely thank you very much.

Unfortunately, with the stock market falling through the floor, energy and food prices rising, global warming kicking in, and the power of the internet in the wrong hands, I fear this is just the start.

The real shame is the rioting (instead of a legitimate political movement) does the cause no good and I suspect it will not be tolerated and the army will be out on the streets before long. A lot of the people involved are Black, and I suspect this will only give the racists more fuel too.
 

Hydro

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The Army will not be deployed. That much can almost be guaranteed. There is no need for military intervention.

If COBRA enacts emergency powers to deploy the military, then it would be a rash decision and not one befitting this situation.
 
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