Ripped off by the railway - Nottingham to Crewe return

[Skymonster]

How many times do you need to be told railway ticketing, and making a journey, is slightly more complex than buying a bunch of bananas?

I also believe that many hide behind an excuse of complexity as a justification for not doing something. Again I contend that the industry could offer more open clarity in pricing journeys should it want to - technology can make that happen. But of course, and to go back to previous, there's no incentive to do so because (a) the railway isn't competitive, (b) it's lose the industry revenue, and (c) the voice of the consumer isn't loud enough on this issue because most aren't aware of it.

Andy

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I also understand that there's no incentive ormwill within the industry to fix things.

The industry is changing things. The UK Government awarded the contract for the first phase of of the introduction of smart card rail ticketing just 2 months ago.

But as I tried to explain in my earlier post, there is not the imagined benefit by making 'split tickets' easier to find and buy where they offer a lower cost to the passenger, because the industry would simply increase prices to compensate. It would have to do so, to retain its revenue.

 

[Greenback]

I also believe that many hide behind an excuse of complexity as a justification for not doing something. Again I contend that the industry could offer more open clarity in pricing journeys should it want to - technology can make that happen. But of course, and to go back to previous, there's no incentive to do so because (a) the railway isn't competitive, (b) it's lose the industry revenue, and (c) the voice of the consumer isn't loud enough on this issue because most aren't aware of it.

Andy

Complexity really isn't an excuse, it's a fact. You do have a point, though, when it comes to the industry being more open about pricing. I would not go so far as saying that fares and splits are deliberately hidden, but it is true to say that if you want access to the fares database through something like Avantix, you have to pay for it.

It's also not exactly true or fair to say that the railway is not competitive. It does compete with other modes of transport, and in fact, part of the problem with the way that the fares are priced is because of the competition between TOC's. Where there is competition on flows, TOC's are more likely to bring in their own fares, which is part of why anomalies exist.

For instance, some years ago FGW wanted to undercut ATW betwene Cardiff and Swansea so introduced their own set of fares valid only on their trains. ATW, who were responsible for pricing the flow, promptly reduced the price of the regular tickets to below FGW's levels. All good news for the customer so far, but this led to the situation where it became far cheaper for passengers from the west of Swansea (where there is only a token FGW presence), to split their tickets, as fares from this area were not reduced at all.

 

[Wath Yard]

I also believe that many hide behind an excuse of complexity as a justification for not doing something. Again I contend that the industry could offer more open clarity in pricing journeys should it want to - technology can make that happen. But of course, and to go back to previous, there's no incentive to do so because (a) the railway isn't competitive, (b) it's lose the industry revenue, and (c) the voice of the consumer isn't loud enough on this issue because most aren't aware of it.

Andy

It is more the complexty of the journey. No IT system in the world can make a journey simpler. If someone wants to go from A - B - A and wants to be back by a certain time but not tied to a certain train then there is a reasonable chance they often cannot be offered the cheapest split. The train may not call at the relevant station(s) to make the ticket valid and they would end up having to buy another ticket if they got it wrong. At some point, if a passenger wants to purchase split ticketing, they need to do some research themselves, whether it be the cheapest option or what services they can travel on. A TVM couldn't possibly explain all that and it would make queues at ticket offices ridiculously long.

 

[All Line Rover]

As I've already mentioned, Tesco and the likes already automatically discount appropriate combinations of items at checkout without the customer for a combination discount. They would never get away with NOT doing this - the media wold be quickly all over them, and in a competitive world it's too risky to upset customers by not applying appropriate pricing.

Imagine if Tesco sold bananas, five to a bunch for £1.00, in the fruit area. Then, hidden in amongst electronics, they routinely offered single bananas at £0.10 each. The press would be all over them, they'd be on Watchdog... This is the equivalent of what the railway is doing by hiding splits and combinations and not offering them as ticketing options as a routine where it would save the customer money. But of course the railway isn't really competitive and can thus abuse it's dominant position.

Have you ever stepped foot in a supermarket? They already do that with bananas! :roll: You can get this pack of 4 Tesco "Value" bananas for £1.15 (see here) or you can buy these individual bananas at 12p each (see here)!

It's like with figs. This 200g bag of figs that costs £2.25 is kept in the fruit and veg isle next to the bananas. This 440g bag of figs that costs £2 is kept AT THE OTHER END OF THE STORE in the cereal isle! And you think the railways have wacky pricing! :roll:

You don't see Tesco mentioned on Watchdog because of the above. It's called business. You only see Tesco mentioned on Watchdog when they have deliberately misled customers, such as claiming that items are 50p each or 2 for £2, or that an item has been reduced in price when in fact the price has been raised. The railways do not mislead customers either (usually ) which is why you don't see them on Watchdog!

 

[island]

Again I contend that the industry could offer more open clarity in pricing journeys should it want to - technology can make that happen.

You've stated that as a truism a couple of times and I have to say I don't think you're right in saying "technology can make that happen". Are you planning on answering the following questions?

Explain how 'the cheapest split' could be offered for London to Glasgow, in a way that any person could easily understand it.

Explain how that same system could make it clear what the restrictions and limitations are.

Explain how the system could cope with people who do not want to be tied to specific trains, dates or routes.

 

[exile]

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool
Explain how 'the cheapest split' could be offered for London to Glasgow, in a way that any person could easily understand it.

Explain how that same system could make it clear what the restrictions and limitations are.

Explain how the system could cope with people who do not want to be tied to specific trains, dates or routes.

--- but those are not the right questions to ask. The question I want answered is why in the simplest possible case where there is only one route from A to C and that is via B, A-B plus A-C is cheaper than A-C. Try Sankey-Birkenhead - SDR 11.90 Sankey-Liverpool is 7.50 SDR. Liverpool-Birkenhead is 2.80. It wouldn't take Deep Thought to work that one out but it's not something a passenger would even consider as it's so nonsensical.

And by the way the supermarket examples are generally concerned with selling off stock that nearing its sell by date or some sort of special offer. We're not talking about special offers on the railway but standard fares - not even advance fares. In general supermarkets want to sell off perishables as soon as possible - hence the plethora of BOGOFs and the like whereas TOCs seem not to mind transporting empty space......

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But the question is the same!

Why should a short distance journey or a "simple" journey be treated any differently to a long distance one?

Or is it just that certain people want their own particular journeys to be made easy and sod everyone else?

 

[sheff1]

. Sainsbury's or Asda won't say to customers at the till "you should have bought two items because they are 'buy one, get one free' and you've only got one". Nor should they.

They may not, but Tesco & Morrison certainly will and the till operator will even get another member of staff to fetch you the second item whilst you continue packing.

Not that this has anything to do with railway ticketing of course

OK. Can you please propose an alternative system that would be fairer?

Yes. One based on mileage (or zones) as is the case in various other countries.

People say 'it can't work here', but I have yet to see a convincing reason why it couldn't.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I can't see why mileage can't work either. Have a fixed rate across the country. Say, 50p a mile peak, 25p off-peak. 1st class offered at a premium of 50% per mile and discounts could be given on seasons on an incremental percentage scale based upon season ticket length.

For routes with several options they could be priced according to the longest permitted route, which will still allow for 'cheaper' options if required or requested.

But of course I expect if this ever did happen and made the fare system 'fairer and cheaper'. Giving everyone what they wanted and removing as much as possible split fare options then you will still get people complain about losing split ticket options and being 'forced' by greedy TOC's to pay more.

Be careful what you wish for. For you may just get what you want.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes. One based on mileage (or zones) as is the case in various other countries.

I buy a Middlesbrough to Hull Anytime Day Single (£41.10) currently I can take any route to York (so via Darlington or Yarm) then either travel from York via Selby or Doncaster onto Hull. All these are different mileages but all are valid on the same ticket. Under your pricing system what would be the cost of this ticket going Middlesbrough - Darlington - York - Doncaster - Hull? What would be the cost of going Middlesbrough - Yarm - York - Sebly - Hull? What would be the cost of going Middlesbrough - Darlington - York - Selby - Hull? I assume that I would not be able to just walk up and buy a Middlesbrough to Hull ticket anymore without restricting myself to one route?

There are plenty of other examples where there are many valid routes, so how do you account for them? Restrict passengers rights on choosing their journey options or something else if so what?

I can't see why mileage can't work either. Have a fixed rate across the country. Say, 50p a mile peak, 25p off-peak.

How do you calculate the fare for the 0800 Kings Cross to Edinburgh (arr 1225)? Do you calculate at the peak rate for any mileage before say 0930 and then off peak afterwards? Wouldn't this introduce another level of complexity in the ticketing as wouldn't you then need to calculate fares for all trains? Or do we just consider anyone leaving on the 0800 to be travelling at a peak time for the entire journey? Assuming we calculate at the peak rate for the whole journey (surely the only option?) then you've just increased the Anytime Single to £196.50 from £152 (that ticket is now only a few quid cheaper than the current First Anytime Single which would itself have been increased to the region of £300). Or peak time from Newcastle to Birmingham? Not quite as bad here only rising to £111 from £96.50 (though this assumes travelling via Leeds if you go via Doncaster then it's £104.50).

Personally I doubt that simple mileage based pricing would be a) simple or b) best for the passenger.

 

[Wath Yard]

Personally I doubt that simple mileage based pricing would be a) simple or b) best for the passenger.

It couldn't possibly work in the passenger's favour. If TOC A charged 50p/mile on an InterCity flow and TOC B charged 45p/mile for a similar distance flow, TOC A would say 'We can't lower our fares because our premium payments are based on that pricing', therefore the only possible outcome would be TOC B would increase their fares.

 

[ainsworth74]

It couldn't possibly work in the passenger's favour.

Which I suppose makes it surprising that it hasn't been implemented already :roll:

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't see why mileage can't work either. Have a fixed rate across the country. Say, 50p a mile peak, 25p off-peak. 1st class offered at a premium of 50% per mile and discounts could be given on seasons on an incremental percentage scale based upon season ticket length.

For routes with several options they could be priced according to the longest permitted route, which will still allow for 'cheaper' options if required or requested....

So would a London-Glasgow fare be more, less or the same as a combination of London-Rugby, Rugby-Nuneaton, Nuneaton-Warrington, Warrington-Oxenholme, Oxenholme-Glasgow? Because most passengers would be taking the direct route, but under the mileage scheme posted there, they would be paying for far more than they are getting, unless of course you start trimming down the permitted routes.

 

[starrymarkb]

So you'd be looking at £200 minimum for a return London to Glasgow? expect a mass exodus to the planes and coaches (unless you plan to nerf them so the railway doesn't have to compete)

Remember that the train is also competing with non-rail modes and the private car on certain flows.

It's not just the railway where splits and stopping short can be cheaper National Express charge a premium for passengers travelling to Airports. Often its cheaper to stay on the coach into London and get the tube back out to Heathrow (I'm not sure if you can stop short as you'd need your luggage unloaded and it would probably be in the Victoria Coach Station Stack!)

 

[island]

Yes. One based on mileage (or zones) as is the case in various other countries.

People say 'it can't work here', but I have yet to see a convincing reason why it couldn't.

I've asked yorkie to post his standard list of questions for people who propose a zone-based mileage system. It generally convinces people that it can't work here without drastically increasing some ticket prices and drastically decreasing others.

 

[yorkie]

Yes. One based on mileage (or zones) as is the case in various other countries.

People say 'it can't work here', but I have yet to see a convincing reason why it couldn't.

Sorry; I've not been following this thread, however someone brought to my attention that mileage based pricing has been suggested.

Therefore, is it possible to get the answers to these 3 questions please

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competitive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

 

[Wolfie]

No they don't, not on a vaguely equivalent comparison. They may with the likes of BOGOF etc but regularly you will find that two smaller packets of something are cheaper than the larger one. e.g. Buy a four pack of baked beans for £2 but buy four individual ones at 45p each. You would be amazed how often it is cheaper to buy individual ones. The same happens with two 250g packets compared to one 500g packet. No supermarket I have ever been to has ever pointed that out. You won't find a sign saying "if you're buying a four-pack, don't as it's cheaper to buy four individual ones", or "don't buy this 500g packet, buy 2 x 250g packets". That's the nearest comparison to split tickets - but a fairly loose one really!

I agree the analogy is dubious. However, taking it forward you are correct but not wholly so - most supermarkets also display the price for a particular weight or volume or unit of item (eg price per Weetabix), albeit in smaller type, which allows the customer to make a comparison if they wish to. There is no such metric available for rail tickets.

 

[exile]

But the question is the same!

Why should a short distance journey or a "simple" journey be treated any differently to a long distance one?

Or is it just that certain people want their own particular journeys to be made easy and sod everyone else?

I don't know what you're driving at. There is no justification whatsoever for the pricing I mentioned. If there is I'm dying to hear it. Anyone who buys a Sankey-Birkenhead ticket is indeed being ripped off.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You quoted my reply to someone else claiming the questions don't matter because something you think is right works for what is, basically, a local journey. You can't just throw in a system for local journeys without considering the effect on other journeys. So my questions are just as relevant and, as yet, UNANSWERED!

I really couldn't care if someone going from Sankey to Birkenhead is being ripped off, I do care if a ticket I can sell in thirty seconds is now going to take thirty minutes because because some fool decided it would be good idea to tell everyone how to make tickets cheaper without properly considering the effects of it.

 

[exile]

Y

I really couldn't care if someone going from Sankey to Birkenhead is being ripped off

I think that says it all. The extent of the ripping off could amount to hundreds of pounds a year to a regular commuter.

I fail to see how it could inconvenience rail staff if a few prices were adjusted to eliminate glaring anomalies such as I've highlighted. Bear in mind that until the last price changes this anomaly did not exist, at which point prices from the Warrington area to the Wirral and stations on other Merseysrail lines were raised by 40%.

 

[Wath Yard]

I think that says it all.

I think you cut off the important bit. Basically, as long as his job is made easy then sod the lot of you.

 

[Stewart]

A few questions come up here.

There is a comparison to supermarket pricing. However supermarket pricing is vastly more simple. But does it need to be? Why not price every stop at a certain price, so for example Leeds to Huddersfield is x, Huddersfield to Stalybrudge is y, and Staybridge to Manchester is z. Therefore combined price is x plus y plus z. Too difficult?

Supermarkets mess things up too when they try to complicate matters. I remember 2 for £5 deals on chicken meals in Co-Op. What really happened was that as each meal was £3.50, they'd takeoff £2 if you bought 2 of them. So when they knocked down individual prices at the end of the day on individual meals to say £2.50 each, you could get 2 meals for £3. I'm sure they didn't intend that..

Some questions were asked:

"Explain how 'the cheapest split' could be offered for London to Glasgow, in a way that any person could easily understand it."

That would be unnecessary if individual station to station stops have fixed prices.

"Explain how that same system could make it clear what the restrictions and limitations are."

Ditto.

"Explain how the system could cope with people who do not want to be tied to specific trains, dates or routes."

They can buy the right route for the journey/s they wish to make.

I spent 20 minutes this morning wasting time booking Leeds to Sheffield, Sheffield to Derby, Derby to Birmingham, Birmingham to Cheltenham, Cheltenham to Swindon. That is not an efficient use of anyone's time or resources.

 

[Deerfold]

Some questions were asked:

"Explain how 'the cheapest split' could be offered for London to Glasgow, in a way that any person could easily understand it."

That would be unnecessary if individual station to station stops have fixed prices.

So will there only be one permitted route for each ticket?

"Explain how the system could cope with people who do not want to be tied to specific trains, dates or routes."

They can buy the right route for the journey/s they wish to make.

Say I want to travel between Leeds and Sheffield. Alternate fasest journeys take different routes. Am I only allowed to take alternate trains with my ticket?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you cut off the important bit. Basically, as long as his job is made easy then sod the lot of you.

I think you missed the point he wanted to sell tickets in a reasonable timescale.

 

[Stewart]

So will there only be one permitted route for each ticket?

Is it beyond the realm of reason to match the prices up?

Say I want to travel between Leeds and Sheffield. Alternate fasest journeys take different routes. Am I only allowed to take alternate trains with my ticket?

Leeds to Sheffield is priced at x. Intermediate routes are priced at x/a where a over the combined route equals 1.

 

[Deerfold]

I think that says it all. The extent of the ripping off could amount to hundreds of pounds a year to a regular commuter.

I fail to see how it could inconvenience rail staff if a few prices were adjusted to eliminate glaring anomalies such as I've highlighted. Bear in mind that until the last price changes this anomaly did not exist, at which point prices from the Warrington area to the Wirral and stations on other Merseysrail lines were raised by 40%.

I think you're missing that point that in a complicated network there's always going to be aomalies like this unless we severely restrict the routes which can be taken with a ticket - some will appear and disappear as companies attempt to keep some fares low to encourage more travel and keep others high where they have a captive market.

If you adjusted a few fares to get rid of your anomaly you may create another one somewhere else. I'm not saying it was right to raise any fares by 40%, merely that the system is complicated - and simplifying is likely to restrict what people can do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is it beyond the realm of reason to match the prices up?

So are we using your original method of x+y+z... or making sure that all the routes between Leeds and Sheffield come to the same total?

Leeds to Sheffield is priced at x. Intermediate routes are priced at x/a where a over the combined route equals 1.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here, but I suspect that you'll have trouble if you're trying to make all the intermediate ways of going from Leeds to Sheffield add up to the same amount whilst also making sure that this works for all the other routes that these are part of.

 

[Stewart]

I don't fully understand what you're saying here, but I suspect that you'll have trouble if you're trying to make all the intermediate ways of going from Leeds to Sheffield add up to the same amount whilst also making sure that this works for all the other routes that these are part of.

I'm interested in hearing how you think this would be so difficult.

Let's say Leeds to Sheffield is priced at £10 (not far off unless you're going to Birmingham :roll.

Whichever route you take can easily be priced to sum up to £10.

 

[exile]

I'm interested in hearing how you think this would be so difficult.

Let's say Leeds to Sheffield is priced at £10 (not far off unless you're going to Birmingham :roll.

Whichever route you take can easily be priced to sum up to £10.

It doesn't even need to be exactly £10 - it just shouldn't be less than £10.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm interested in hearing how you think this would be so difficult.

Let's say Leeds to Sheffield is priced at £10 (not far off unless you're going to Birmingham :roll.

Whichever route you take can easily be priced to sum up to £10.

Yes, but say you can go between the two by (to keep it simple) 3 routes:

Leeds - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield
Leeds - Wakefield Kirkgate - Sheffield
Leeds - Huddersfield - Barnsley - Sheffield.

Easy to make them all add up to £10.

However now we look at Leeds - Manchester, possible by:

Leeds - Hebden Bridge - Manchester or

Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester.

But we've just carefully set Leeds - Huddersfield to fit in with making Leeds - Sheffield £10. Will this affect what we can charge for Huddersfield to Manchester to ensure it's the same for both Leeds - Manchester Routes?

There will be tens of thousands of interactions like this.

I'm sure you'll refuse to believe it again but this ends up being very complicated mathmatically.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't even need to be exactly £10 - it just shouldn't be less than £10.

So the key is to charge lots for shorter journeys? That would get rid of many anomalies, but I doubt it would be popular.

 

[Stewart]

Yes, but say you can go between the two by (to keep it simple) 3 routes:

Leeds - Wakefield Westgate - Sheffield
Leeds - Wakefield Kirkgate - Sheffield
Leeds - Huddersfield - Barnsley - Sheffield.

Easy to make them all add up to £10.

However now we look at Leeds - Manchester, possible by:

Leeds - Hebden Bridge - Manchester or

Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester.

But we've just carefully set Leeds - Huddersfield to fit in with making Leeds - Sheffield £10.

Why would that be necessary? Leeds to Huddersfield to Sheffield would by any normal pricing method exceed £10.

Will this affect what we can charge for Huddersfield to Manchester to ensure it's the same for both Leeds - Manchester Routes?

There will be tens of thousands of interactions like this.

I'm sure you'll refuse to believe it again but this ends up being very complicated mathmatically.

I'm not sure where you are going here. I think you are using the current complicated pricing mechanisms to justify the current complicated pricing mechanisms.